Techniques & ideas for 60s/70s style recordings????

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shadwell157
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Techniques & ideas for 60s/70s style recordings????

Post by shadwell157 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:43 am

Hi folks

I run a small studio in the UK and track to ProTools (6.4.2 via 888/24s....yes....old but steady!!). We run a modest amount of outboard and local bands are really happy with the sounds we're getting at a modest price.

However.....I'm looking into getting further into the 'medium-fidelity/lo-fi' side of life tracking onto a newly serviced Tascam 388 then onto a Studer A62.....and then back into the computer. We're getting asked quite a bit by bands eager to track to tape (even if it is 1/4").....there's quite a garage rock and 50's rock and roll thing going on at the mo.

We've got some great results using a two mic set up for drums (http://soundcloud.com/punchstudios/sets ... s-playlist check out Not Enough by Go Go Colin for that) using either an STC 4038 or AKG D19 for the drum overhead & D12 on kick (admitted all recordings at the mo still in Pro-Tools) but you can really hear how the old Beatles drum sounds (and others) came together.

My question is really, what other mics out there that would suit what we're trying to get into, or which were well used in 60's/70's garage, rock & soul music?

Also....are there any cool ideas on mic placements (esp for guitars) & signal flow etc?

To give you a brief run down of what we have: STC 4038, 2x STC 4037A, Reselo (sic?) ribbon mic, AKG D19, D12, D112, U87, U89, 4 x 414's, a good handful of 57's and some old boundary mics. Outboard includes, 4 channel CLM mic pres, 3 x DBX160s, C1B some Joe Meek bits....we run via a mackie 32 8bus which we plan to then group out onto the tascam.

.....I'm also looking at getting an apogee duet to take the final mix back into the digital age from the A62....

Many thanks for any suggestions in advance and sorry it crosses over techniques and gear head forums!!

Cheers

:)
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Post by drumsound » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:38 am

Get into the EV PL and RE mics form that era. If you're going for an American sound, more dynamics were used, the Brits and other Europeans had better access to the AKG and Neumann, so they were more prominant there. Don't use too many mics on the drums, do go for super live room tones.

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Post by shadwell157 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:19 am

Cheers!

I've found the less on the drums are better. Using D19/4038 as the overhead and the D12 on the kick (by skin...looking towards the snare a bit).

I wondered if there were any other techniques like that for guitar micing?

Bands I love the production on are the Kinks, Small Faces, Zombies.....then onto Television, Devo etc....

Thanks for the help so far.
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Post by SafeandSoundMastering » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:05 am

Minimal miking, retro mics, retro style mics, tape or tape emulation, direct to stereo recording, Fairchild emulations (unless you have the real thing of course), ribbon mics/dynamics, plenty of discrete circuits and no opamps in signal paths, live sounding room with tailored acoustics, I might be off here but spring / plate reverbs ?

So much would also be the players, instruments and amplification used.

cheers
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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:33 am

The biggest trick is to put everybody in the same room. A big part of the sound of those records is everybody bleeding into everybody else's mics. You can use baffles and mic positioning to tame and tailor the bleed. The trick is to listen to everything together. Solo'd tracks can sound quite bad but work perfectly with all the other tracks up.
See if you can track down the stems for Gimme Shelter. They're a real revelation and could be used as the textbook for this kind of recording.

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Post by Dominick Costanzo » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:00 am

You already have the tools.

60's through 70's is a pretty broad range.
Recording techniques radically changed in that decade.
You could have the musicians playing with no headphones in one room with minimum isolation and lots of good leakage (eg. Pet Sounds) or you could have them in a dead space, isolated from each other, playing with headphones (eg. Ziggy Stardust).

Personally I'm no fan of any 1/2" 8 track machines.
No professional studio in the 60's or 70's would ever consider using something with the crappy S/N ratio of those things.
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Post by Stablenet » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:39 pm

Fewer tracks, not a lot of close mic'ing and different gear in the 60's
More tracks, close mic'ing in the 70's

What are your favorite songs, specifically?

I probably say this every other post, but base your drum mic'ing off of the Glyn Johns method and add to that.
Actually don't add a lot. The secret is in phase coherence, bleed, and simplicity.

Old pres are a good idea.
You've got the right idea with ribbons, but make sure you have enough gain.
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Post by shadwell157 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:16 am

Thanks for the replies folks.

Yes, I think I'm being far too vague spanning over 2 decades!

60's is the real vibe I would like to achieve. We have a nice live space to track a 5 piece sensibly, it's not a massive room (6m x 5m...separate vocal booth if needed) but is lively, have moveable baffles and bass traps etc etc.... We seem always to get our best results when tracking everyone live, the musicianship and vibe of the songs really come together better than when we full on multi-track.

If I track all without headphones....what is the best way for the band to hear the vocals (for the band) without mega spill....or is this also desirable? Would it be best to all get headphoned up?

Song wise, I love Zombies, She's Not There & Time of The Seasons. You can't fault Pet Sounds....reading the making of book at the mo, Small Faces, Tin Soldier & Autumn Stone. Kinks, Dead End Street..... I think it's the overall 'vibe' of the mod & rock n roll of that era....it's beautiful!

I've not heard any Stones stems, (will try and track them down) can imagine all separated it sounds naff and weedy, but it all comes together in the mix! I've heard some Beatles and Queen and again separated it really sounds naff!!

What do you folk think of the extreme panning used in the sixites? Most modern indie/rock guitar music to my ears is pretty dull when it comes to the mix. When I listen to Stevie Wonder, Small Faces etc.....I love the fact they've chucked drums all into the left channel, bass in the other and various other things........maybe one for another thread??!!!

Anyhow.....thanks for the suggestions!

A mixture of bits recorded (mostly are live....but not particularly 60's) can be heard here www.soundcloud.com/punchstudios

Joe :)
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Post by fossiltooth » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:33 am

There's not really one 60's sound to my ear. The only consistent elements are Tape, not-a-batshit-amount-of-compression, and, in pop/rock, a fair amount of muffling. When you have a specific records to talk about, it's much easier easy to go into more depth.

For instance, what makes the drums on Time of the Season sounds so f*ing good is the overall arrangement and groove:
There are no cymbals to speak of until the solo, which allow those toms to really speak. Also: that gigantically fat bassline stands in a lot for the kick drum giving the impression of a massive rhythm section without a lot of size in the drums. There's a ridiculously tight snare with tons of verb, and right-panned claps on the off beat that get a serious, timed predelay into a pretty sick bright-sounding plate reverb. The actual drums don't actually take up a lot space by themselves.

That track sounds cool because the arrangement is perfect and there are extremely colorful reverbs that are only used ostentatiously in a few key places. Add a killer bass groove and well-pocketed vocal, and you have a pretty rad track. The drums there aren't necessarily amazing by themselves - it's the whole context that makes the groove work.

Basically: record a kickass groove on a great, small, old kit in a good sounding room that's spacious but controlled. Then, do some cool sh*t to it, especially in an arrangement sense. For a truly authentic flavor, track to tape, forget that beat detective and samples exist, and don't use a sh*t ton of aggressive-sounding bus compression.

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Post by fossiltooth » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:54 am

Before I forget to mention it: A lot of 60s drum stuff is often just a mono overhead and kick drum mic. Sometimes an accent mic on snare, but not always.

Want to hear what a ton of drum compression sounded like in the 60s? Listen to "She Said She Said" off of Revolver. Ridiculous and amazing.

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Post by Stablenet » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:47 am

Joe, inquiring again, have you read up on the Glyn Johns method for drums? I think at least understanding that is absolutely key for what you're doing.

Also, if you can track down a copy of Recording The Beatles by Brian Kehew you will not be sorry. I think you have to order it from the writers, but it's the most interesting book you will own. I promise. Worth three times the cover price at least.

I'm crazy about the music you mentioned, and use those records as a guide. If my little recording space has a signature sound it's going for, it's inspired by that. You know the little studios in the 60's that wanted to be EMI but couldn't, so they did what they could with their limited means? Those places are my inspiration. The studios that churned out the Nuggets stuff.

You can achieve that with a combination of good plug ins and studying the techniques of your heros. You can afford to purchase and use a lot of EV mics from that era. 635a's are 30 bucks apiece. You should probably own some 421's and one really great vocal mic. You will have a hard time getting "the sound" with modern gear, but old stuff doesn't need to be expensive.

Where classic gear IS expensive, as with Fairchild and Gates gear, you'll have to settle for plug ins, but they do a great job.

Combine these with the Placement Techniques of Olde and you'll get somewhere.

Another thing that I do a lot is treat my computer like a tape machine.
You no longer have 78 tracks if you need it, you have 16 (or 8!). We all know you can work backwards through previously recorded tracks, but bands often don't know that and maybe you should consider permanently deleting along the way.
"How do you like that take?"
"It was pretty good"
"OK, good enough to move on, or are we *recording over this one*?"
It introduces a little Red Light Fever into the modern session. It makes people commit. When a band that's "garage" is OK with racking up 4 tracks of tambourine I think they've missed the point. Garage *inspired* like the Black Keys or Jack White, sure, but when I say you should try your best to replicate the session as it was Back In The Day if you're trying to make a Zombies-ish record, that's what I mean.

I think that's just as important as the gear.

-A
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Post by decocco » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:44 pm

Work fast. Use good gear. Band plays live in a good room together with minimal overdubs. Work fast. Did I mention work fast? Make decisions quickly and stick to them. Do not save processing for mixdown. Process on the way to tape. Process further in mixing. Whatever, just do it fast! Time is money! :wink:

You can hear an example of me applying this method on the tracks "Good and Alone" and "Miss Bona Fide" here:Your Sister's Canary. I think it sounds fairly '60's '70's ish. This is the first (and only!) time I've made a vintage sounding record, so take my advice with a big 'ol grain of salt.

We used headphones, but everyone was in the same room together. All the "reverb" you hear on the drums is the room mics, which picked up some ambience from the guitars and bass as well. The amps and drums were baffled off with a few gobos, but not totally enclosed. We used many mics that you already own.

Anyway,I think that getting that "old school" sound it's mostly a matter of working quickly and not second guessing yourself. Make it sound good, right now!
-Chris D.

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Re: Techniques & ideas for 60s/70s style recordings????

Post by decocco » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:50 pm

shadwell157 wrote: My question is really, what other mics out there that would suit what we're trying to get into, or which were well used in 60's/70's garage, rock & soul music?

Also....are there any cool ideas on mic placements (esp for guitars) & signal flow etc?
You've already got some nice mics. I am a fool for U87 on guitar amps.

I find it helps to back the mics away from the amp a little. Don't have them up against the grill, keep 'em back like 6" or so.

Also, vary the distance between source and amp to move things front to back in the mix.
-Chris D.

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Post by drumsound » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:48 pm

shadwell157 wrote:Thanks for the replies folks.

Yes, I think I'm being far too vague spanning over 2 decades!

60's is the real vibe I would like to achieve. We have a nice live space to track a 5 piece sensibly, it's not a massive room (6m x 5m...separate vocal booth if needed) but is lively, have moveable baffles and bass traps etc etc.... We seem always to get our best results when tracking everyone live, the musicianship and vibe of the songs really come together better than when we full on multi-track.

If I track all without headphones....what is the best way for the band to hear the vocals (for the band) without mega spill....or is this also desirable? Would it be best to all get headphoned up?
Use a small box PA, don't run it too loud and use placement and mic patterns just like you do for the other apms.
Song wise, I love Zombies, She's Not There & Time of The Seasons. You can't fault Pet Sounds....reading the making of book at the mo, Small Faces, Tin Soldier & Autumn Stone. Kinks, Dead End Street..... I think it's the overall 'vibe' of the mod & rock n roll of that era....it's beautiful!
Instrument tones come before the mics, always remember that. Tune the drums to sound similar, use similar guitars and amps. If the tones are there, the mic has quite an easy job.
I've not heard any Stones stems, (will try and track them down) can imagine all separated it sounds naff and weedy, but it all comes together in the mix! I've heard some Beatles and Queen and again separated it really sounds naff!!
There's lessons for days on those leaked multitracks.
What do you folk think of the extreme panning used in the sixites? Most modern indie/rock guitar music to my ears is pretty dull when it comes to the mix. When I listen to Stevie Wonder, Small Faces etc.....I love the fact they've chucked drums all into the left channel, bass in the other and various other things........maybe one for another thread??!!!
That's something very enigmatic of the period. Its one of the few things that sometimes puts me off with old stereo records, but it's always good to try it out and see what you think.
fossiltooth wrote:Before I forget to mention it: A lot of 60s drum stuff is often just a mono overhead and kick drum mic. Sometimes an accent mic on snare, but not always.

Want to hear what a ton of drum compression sounded like in the 60s? Listen to "She Said She Said" off of Revolver. Ridiculous and amazing.
Revolver is a lesson in creative compression!!!

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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:05 am

shadwell157 wrote: What do you folk think of the extreme panning used in the sixites? Most modern indie/rock guitar music to my ears is pretty dull when it comes to the mix. When I listen to Stevie Wonder, Small Faces etc.....I love the fact they've chucked drums all into the left channel, bass in the other and various other things........maybe one for another thread??!!!

Joe :)
Those crazy panned mixes were often done very quickly with the idea that not many people would end up hearing them. Mono was still the dominant format so lots of attention went into the mono mix. When it came time to do the stereo mix the band was often gone and it came down to the producer and engineer doing a quick job. Lots of those records were made on 4 track machines and had lots of bounces done while tracking. This is why you often have the drums and bass in one speaker and the guitars, vocals etc in the other. You can't pan out the drums and bass if they're mixed together on one track.
The best way I've found to work on extreme stereo mixes is to do most of the work in mono. Get your balances and eq together in mono, switch to stereo and do your panning then go back to mono and adjust your balances again. This keeps the extreme panning from distracting you. A great mono mix will sound great in stereo.

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