Learning to let go.

[trodden]

The one thing I'm still having a hard time with, knowing when it's "done". This is a common problem with people producing/recording their own music, but I'm having the problem with other peoples stuff.

Most, this is related to the quality of the source. That beat to shit drum kit is only going to sound so good, especially if the person playing it has some technique issues (barely tapping the snare while bludgeoning the hi-hat , for instance).


I'll keep pushing and pulling, setting and resetting, strong arming the mix, take a long break from it, and still not happy with the sound/mix/feel/etc.

Majority of my work are bands with very low budgets. I find myself doing a lot to make everyone happy, myself included, to get a final mix that sounds great, and that usually means a lot of unpaid hours on a project. Sometimes, well it's just can't get better, and I'm thinking that maybe my relaxed attention to what is budgeted to how much more we're putting in may be shooting me in the foot. Things get stretched out for longer than they should for one, and the sonic returns sometimes don't amount to much more.

I need to learn when to know something is "done" even if it doesn't sound "right" to me. For the client may think it's wonderful! I listen back to old recordings of bands I was in when I was a broke punk and I remember LOVING those records, even though now I hear all kinds is "issues". I need to learn not to get so hung up on all the many options there are, have a goal/idea and go forward, not get hung up on the many aspects that a sound can go, do, become.

I need to learn that $X amount can only be milked for so long and that giving away a ton of free time isn't always the best idea. Favors are nice, and flexibility on budgets is part of the nature of this business. But there is a line..

Finally, after all the years polishing turds, I still need to learn how to not only recognize those turds, but how to get past them quickly and not get hung up or take it personally when I can't make it work or sound good.

I need to learn that my time spent is worthy of my payment even if I don't think it sounds that great, and shouldnt feel weird about charging my fair price at the end...

Those are the things I'm having a hard time with lately.

[Brett Siler]

Before a session I try to work with this montra in mind, trust work fast, agressively, and trust your instincts. By no way does that mean being a dick, but just know in your head how you want it to sound, and just going for it. Being sound guy for the past few years really drilled that into me. I know live and studio are pretty different but it really did make a big difference, in a positive way, in the studio. You don't have time to second guess yourself, you just have to do it. I try to get all the technical stuff out of the way, setting up outboard gear, mics, ect. and just letting the creativity flow. Sometimes getting too analytical when it comes to mix time can really screw things up.

[Electro-Voice 664]

I run into this a lot as well. In audio and my day job of video production. It's sometimes hard when you want a better result than the client does. It's a constant struggle to make it as good as you can without putting in a ton of free time to polish those turds. You want your work to be great so it's hard to say, "here is your turd sandwich, make sure my name is all over that."

[fossiltooth]

Trodden my man, that was all very well put. The fact that you care that much and are still able to maintain some perspective means you're probably doing just as well as any of us. It sounds to me like you're on the right track.

Just try to remember how to be certain of yourself. Most of us were at some point until a million mixed opinions cluttered up our heads.

If you ever start trying to please some imaginary external critic who hates everything you do naturally, then you're sniffing up the wrong tree. Otherwise, you're doing great. Fail fast and often, keep getting back up, share your hits more than your misses, and people will pay attention.

Good luck!

[Snarl 12/8]

Trodski,

I'm wondering two things.

Can you afford to get a decent house kit, bass rig, bass, etc. for a house kit? Then you'd have some control over initial turd quality. Maybe even triggers on the kit to give you some options? My experience is that the shittier (newer, younger?) bands are the most loathe to play other people's instruments, for some reason, so that might not work.

How's your monitoring set up? Is there a weak link in that chain that could be addressed? Dialing in your monitors and control room might really, really help you move faster. If you're not getting a clear picture and easy it can be hard to be decisive and move on. I know with my setup it takes forever to mix because I'm always trying to picture in my head what it really sounds like.

It sounds to me like you've identified a problem, so investing a little time/dough in solving it might be meaningful. As opposed to simple GAS which is often gear lust in search of a problem to solve.

Maybe that's not at all what you were after.

ck

[jkelly222]

Before going into the mixing process make sure you're happy with what you've captured. If the drummer isn't balancing their instrument then tell the person, and work at it until you get the sound you're looking for. You're the pro and that's why they're recording with you. You're the one that know's how to get to the final out coming that everyone is hoping for.

[trodden]

Thanks for the input everyone.

All good points.

But i think the issues are more focused on not really gear related, but people skill related, and the people being me, if that makes any sense.

It is my job to make sure that what is going in is good, so it comes out good, but most of these bands and myself included, don't have the time, or the availability to spend more time refining their skill set here in the studio.. its a "we got 2 days to track this stuff, lets go!" thing.. part of the thing I was trying to get at above with budgets and such.. but its totally a good point. I'm talking about the night and day difference between a band with properly set up gear, well rehearsed, and have the time and budget to spend on a recording VS the opposite.. I take both situations just as important and seriously as the other... I'm trying to figure out how to wrap my head and my OCD around REALITY i guess i'm saying.

I wish i had ROOM for a house drum kit. Unfortunately space here is limited. One thing though, i need to build up a decent sample library and learn how to quickly use a drum replacer program when there is that crappy snare, kick, whatever... I've only used drum replacement a few times with some metal bands who want that "production" and its been a painful process using sound replacer each time. I need to look into other software that may make it easier.

I guess the main thing i'm talking about is dealing with the realization that comes out of the speakers to some people.. the "umm that doesn't sound good", and its not because of the recording itself per say, but the song writing, the gear used, etc... I want everyone to have a good experience here and walk out with something they're proud of. When that doesnt' happen or i "FEEL" it isn't happening, that uphill battle is a tough one. Its like "you just paid a few hundred dollars to realize what you're doing isn't very good"

I'm much happier with my monitoring here than the last place. I've only been working out of this room for about 9 months now and I'm still learning it. But its definitely an improvement over what I had the 5 years before.

fuck, does this make sense?

[jkelly222]

I definitely understand what you're getting at. I sometimes get that same kinda vibe from working live sound. When bands lug all their gear to the venue, load up and down stairs, and then have a mediocre show due to their abilities, equipment, or just plain bad songs. Usually they don't get paid(because nobody came to see them). It's a bummer. But it's better than if they didn't try at all. When it comes down to it. I don't feel bad or un-worthy, as if I didn't do them justice with my work. I just know they have learning to do and I did my best.

If a band isn't happy with the way their (rushed) records turn out it's up to them to figure out what they dislike and work towards achieving their goals. If you're doing the best you can as an engineer then you're doing exactly the right thing and that is skill and work that you deserve to be fairly paid for.

[jkelly222]

Also another way around this is to work with clients you know have their shit together. I know this may not be possible for financial reasons in which case back to what I said before.

[Snarl 12/8]

I wonder if there's some way to give them a before/after. Like, this is the turd you gave me, now here's how much I polished it up. People need to know the limits of where studio chicanery can get them.

I just had a thought. With bands like that, probably the best product you could give them as they leave the studio would be a quick write up of what they could do to have a better outcome next time. Like give them a little print out with what you think their audible strengths and weaknesses are. Get a new snare, a new kick head, set-up guitar and bass rig. Or practice your transitions into your bridges, or whatever it is. It doesn't sound like you do pre-production, but you could do post, like you're basically trying to do come mix time.

Does that make any sense? It might make you feel a little better about the cd you're sending them out with. I could see that totally backfiring too though. Sounds like these are younger bands to me (maybe I'm way off on that.) But when I was young, I don't think I was arrogant at all, but I didn't really incorporate criticism into my workflow very well. It's taken me years sometimes to realize what people meant by some fairly simple tips they were giving me, and some of it I still don't understand. But I think if you can find the least douchey way of doing it most people will realize you were at least trying to be helpful even if it wasn't.

Ugh. I'm a ramblin' man.

[jhharvest]

In my TV work I've recorded people with all skill levels, including kids with severe disabilities*. We work live to 2 track most of the time, which is really great. You learn very early that you don't need to make bands sound different to what they are. Just bring their strengths to the front and try to push the weaknesses back. That's the job.

You could try live to 2 track or have an omni mono room mic. That way your decisions are balance decisions, like a mixer is supposed to do, instead of trying to produce a band whose producer you aren't. And you could try telling them "It's totally cool, we can re-record once you've done more touring."

*Those kids were awesome. No fixing needed. Trying to make them sound like someone else would have been a lost cause.

[vvv]

You could try live to 2 track or have an omni mono room mic.

My thought was, consider having like a Zoom or some cheap two-track and record a rehearsal song or two right there - it might at least give you a base benchmark against which the studio results will be very clear.

[trodden]

It's a bummer. But it's better than if they didn't try at all. When it comes down to it. I don't feel bad or un-worthy, as if I didn't do them justice with my work. I just know they have learning to do and I did my best.

If a band isn't happy with the way their (rushed) records turn out it's up to them to figure out what they dislike and work towards achieving their goals. If you're doing the best you can as an engineer then you're doing exactly the right thing and that is skill and work that you deserve to be fairly paid for.

This I like and this pretty much sums it up and is a positive way of sorting it out.

[trodden]

Also another way around this is to work with clients you know have their shit together. I know this may not be possible for financial reasons in which case back to what I said before.

well, about 75% of the time it seems somewhat of something is together!! The painful ones are when everyone but 1 person has it together, and that someone completely tears it all down...

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,

The one thing I'm still having a hard time with, knowing when it's "done". This is a common problem with people producing/recording their own music, but I'm having the problem with other peoples stuff.
Most, this is related to the quality of the source. That beat to shit drum kit is only going to sound so good, especially if the person playing it has some technique issues (barely tapping the snare while bludgeoning the hi-hat , for instance).

That's me, on a daily basis. I am currently trying to mix a song in which at least two, maybe as much as 4 "lead" vocals were turned in as a Stereo submix. Even though I asked for individual tracks... In your case, pretend the drummer played it like that because that is HIS technique. Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole... Make the hihat playing sound more interesting.

I'll keep pushing and pulling, setting and resetting, strong arming the mix, take a long break from it, and still not happy with the sound/mix/feel/etc.
Majority of my work are bands with very low budgets. I find myself doing a lot to make everyone happy, myself included, to get a final mix that sounds great, and that usually means a lot of unpaid hours on a project. Sometimes, well it's just can't get better, and I'm thinking that maybe my relaxed attention to what is budgeted to how much more we're putting in may be shooting me in the foot. Things get stretched out for longer than they should for one, and the sonic returns sometimes don't amount to much more.

The thing is... EMBRACE the crappy sounds. Your Crappy might be someone else's AMAZING. If you did not record them, you have to think that the band likes what they bring you. As to how long it takes, for example sometimes when I mix, I charge PER SONG, and if it takes me 3 days or 4 hours, is completely on me.

I need to learn when to know something is "done" even if it doesn't sound "right" to me. For the client may think it's wonderful! I listen back to old recordings of bands I was in when I was a broke punk and I remember LOVING those records, even though now I hear all kinds is "issues". I need to learn not to get so hung up on all the many options there are, have a goal/idea and go forward, not get hung up on the many aspects that a sound can go, do, become.

I agree. Especially when it is someone else's record. Save your idea of aural perfection for your own productions.

I need to learn that $X amount can only be milked for so long and that giving away a ton of free time isn't always the best idea. Favors are nice, and flexibility on budgets is part of the nature of this business. But there is a line..
Finally, after all the years polishing turds, I still need to learn how to not only recognize those turds, but how to get past them quickly and not get hung up or take it personally when I can't make it work or sound good.

Recognize the turd, and make it a smelly BEAST of a turd. "Shitty is Pretty" someone once said...

I need to learn that my time spent is worthy of my payment even if I don't think it sounds that great, and shouldnt feel weird about charging my fair price at the end...
Those are the things I'm having a hard time with lately.

They came to you for a reason, as long as that reason is in line with the reality that can't make a Brown Turd into a Pink Turd. At least not for what they are currently paying you...