In mixing, how do you place instruments in their own space?

[austingreen]

Thank you all for the advice thus far. Playing a show this week, we start mixing next week. Things I'm gonna try from this thread:

*1st of all starting in mono:
This seems important and popular, I like the idea if you can get some separation and a good sounding mix here, once you get to panning, it could be that much better, wider.

*Cutting EQ to help things sit together better.
We seemed to have put a lot of importance in getting a great, loud, full tone (especially gtrs) without thought to how it will sound in the big picture, at least with the basic instruments. When overdubing its easier to audition the tone and how it sits with the basics.

*Start with vocals, harmonies or important instruments first. Drums, bass last.
We've been doing the opposite of this.

Sidebar:
Usually i want the instrument I'm tracking to sound like what I'm hearing in the room. Is this kinda dumb or at least unrealistic? Since the mic and signal chain don't "hear" the same as me and by the time its on tape and sent to speakers, it's always going to be different?

JustinFoley:
I'm also a big fan of the "in the room" sound and big fan of 50's 60's jazz. I tried to get some bleed between instruments (we tracked basics live) to accomplish some of this. The drummer was not into this, he has a different asthetic in mind. 4 guys in band = 4 different visions. But we recorded this on 8 track and mixing from the 388 on purpose to cut down on the superfluous overdubs, which are so fun to do but there comes a point of dimishing returns as we layer more and more ideas.

Sidebar2:
On our first album we recorded every idea and said "we'll figure it all out in the mix," Which performances to use, mix and match from different takes, what overdubs where, moving stuff around, planning on reamping vocals, etc... I really did not like working that way or the way it turned out. I felt the good songwriting/performances were buried by a terrible mix and no clear vision of the overall asthetics of the album as a whole. I also thought correcting every tiny "mistake" took away some of the life and charm of the performances. There must be albums out there made this way that I like a lot but I guess we're not skilled enough in this type of production to pull it off.

NickSevilla:
Regardless of that ridiculous last sentence/challenge... I really did like a lot of what you're talking about and in the future will be trying to use some of that stuff, especially when I'm in the box but we're trying to stay OTB as much as possible till the last steps (see OP). It was nice to get some very specific techniques, descriptions, and the way you described the audio field of perception that made sense.

radkins:
yes i want to do that in the future...

thanks again all,
ps : i like books and will check those out!

[MoreSpaceEcho]

*Start with vocals, harmonies or important instruments first. Drums, bass last.
We've been doing the opposite of this.

2 cents....i would say maybe try starting with drums, bass, and lead vocal. get a nice balance happening with just those three things, then work in the guitars and harmonies around them.

[Nick Sevilla]

Thank you all for the advice thus far. Playing a show this week, we start mixing next week. Things I'm gonna try from this thread:

SNIP

NickSevilla:
Regardless of that ridiculous last sentence/challenge... I really did like a lot of what you're talking about and in the future will be trying to use some of that stuff, especially when I'm in the box but we're trying to stay OTB as much as possible till the last steps (see OP). It was nice to get some very specific techniques, descriptions, and the way you described the audio field of perception that made sense.

SNIP

No worries. My sense of humor is definitely not everyone's cup o tea, it's harder online...

Don't forget to tip the waitress, and the restroom attendant on the way out...

[jgimbel]

*Start with vocals, harmonies or important instruments first. Drums, bass last.
We've been doing the opposite of this.

2 cents....i would say maybe try starting with drums, bass, and lead vocal. get a nice balance happening with just those three things, then work in the guitars and harmonies around them.

+1. I kind of think of this being related to the drum tuning article that was posted in another thread from Trust Me, I'm A Scientist (I believe, maybe it was another article I read, I'd have to double check), but it was suggesting when tuning toms to start with the floor tom first and work up from there. If you start with the highest tom and get it to be how you feel is ideal, then do the next tom lower than that in the "right" spot, then by the time you get to floor tom the pitch that would fit with the higher toms would be so low that you couldn't reach it without just having the head be too loose to play. I really like the idea of doing bass, drums, and vocals. It's really easy to focus on guitar tone and not limit the frequency range of it to a spot that allows room for other things around it. I don't always do it this way, but I'm thinking I should start. I've been happier when I do.

[Nick Sevilla]

*Start with vocals, harmonies or important instruments first. Drums, bass last.
We've been doing the opposite of this.

2 cents....i would say maybe try starting with drums, bass, and lead vocal. get a nice balance happening with just those three things, then work in the guitars and harmonies around them.

+1. I kind of think of this being related to the drum tuning article that was posted in another thread from Trust Me, I'm A Scientist (I believe, maybe it was another article I read, I'd have to double check), but it was suggesting when tuning toms to start with the floor tom first and work up from there. If you start with the highest tom and get it to be how you feel is ideal, then do the next tom lower than that in the "right" spot, then by the time you get to floor tom the pitch that would fit with the higher toms would be so low that you couldn't reach it without just having the head be too loose to play. I really like the idea of doing bass, drums, and vocals. It's really easy to focus on guitar tone and not limit the frequency range of it to a spot that allows room for other things around it. I don't always do it this way, but I'm thinking I should start. I've been happier when I do.

-1

I usually start with everything in, in a crazy melee for my attention. It may seem messy or counter-intuitive at first, but really, if there are any arrangement issues, or issues with competing instruments, this will be apparent almost immediately.

This I do because most of the time, I end up having to pare down the sheer amount or stuff to make the song make musical sense, and sound like it was arranged properly. Then again, 1 out of 10 songs gets the proper thought on arrangement, and I do not have to get the big Mute button engaged almost at all.

The competing part of the issue, is especially important when dealing with an instrument that is in the same range as the lead vocal or lead melodic instrument. If you don't have all of that in from the beginning, you end up having to tear down part or all of your mix to "fix" it later on. If you find it early, you can think of a couple of options, such as muting it when the vocal is playing, or changing it to a higher or lower octave if it MUST be in with the lead. There are other alternatives, but usually this is up for discussion with whomever did the arrangement / production of the song.

Just adding my competing 2c to the post...

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i basically agree with you. i mix with everything in pretty much all the time too. but, in situations such as

1. the mix is just not happening, and/or

2. the person mixing isn't an experienced legit barcode professional like yourself,

then i think it can indeed be real helpful to strip it back to rhythm section and vocals as a starting point. if you can get those happening than at least you have something that you know is working. it can be easier to add to that a bit at a time rather than wrestling the whole thing into shape all at once. that's all i'm saying.

[mscottweber]

I agree with both of those opnions on how to start a mix. I have found it helpful to, as Nick said, start with EVERYTHING playing together and spend a few minutes (5-20 or so) listening for problem areas, playing with levels and pans and mutes, etc. If there is a whole lot going on and I'm feeling ambitous I may get out a notebook and take notes, but usually I will just make mental notes of what was working/not working with the tracks.
THEN I will mute everything but the vocals and drums/bass and build from there, keeping in mind everything I learned from listening to the whole mess of tracks together. Just like it is important to always EQ tracks with everything else playing (NOT in solo), getting a feel for the entire picture of the song/production and where the artist wants it to go BEFORE I start to mix helps me make better mix decisions from the get-go.

Does this make any sense? Still waiting for coffee to take effect

[goose42]

Just like it is important to always EQ tracks with everything else playing (NOT in solo), getting a feel for the entire picture of the song/production and where the artist wants it to go BEFORE I start to mix helps me make better mix decisions from the get-go.

+1!

My two cents: I like to break things down into categories of rhythm, harmony, and melody, and focus in that order on making sure the elements are clearly represented. If I get well-recorded tracks to work with, jigsawing with EQ is minimal. You can spend all day on that, though... bass is both a rhythm and melody instrument, etc.

It helps me because by the time I'm adding vocals and lead/solo tracks, it's generally about level automation and placement in the stereo field; for the most part, my EQ/dynamics work is done. Or, if just changing level and placement isn't working, then I can easily identify things that need work.

[jnorman34]

there are 5 primary ways to establish a space in your mixes for the various elements:

VOLUME - mixing a specific element at a higher volume than other elements will tend to pull that element forward, and vice versa. this is the principal "emphasis" part of the mix. be careful that you do not overuse this as it cannegatively affect the overall balance of the final mix.

BALANCE OF OVERALL FREQUENCY PRESENTATION - Use EQ to establish a primary frequency location for each instrument in the mix, such that emphasized frequencies for each instrument do not clash with each other.

PAN - place each instrument in its own specific location in the L_R soundstage

REVERB - this gives control over the front-to-rear soundstage. some things, like vocals or solo instruments should be up front while supporting insruments should be placed behind them, and synths and washes even further back.

DELAY - often not even considered by beginning engineers, delay can be used as a spatial control device by utlizing time placement. i am not talking about adding a delayed signal to the original - i am talking about delaying the original signal by 20-50ms or so. this type of delay, while still realtively subliminal, makes the ear percieve the instrument in a differential manner from other elements it may be in conflict with.

one common mistake i might mention is the individual "finessing" of each instrumetn sound befor trying to mix. some folks try to "fix" each instrument before mixing them together - eg, getting the guitar to sound perfect all by itself, then trying to get the next isntrument perfect, etc, and then begin mixing - BIG mistake. by listening to single instruments alone, you will wind up utilizing a full-range frequency response to try and make each instrument sound full and balanced - when you try to mix those elements together, you will have enormous frequency overlaps and balance problems. ie, let the bass have the bottom end - the guitar does not need to try to fill those frequencies. let the cymbals have the top end - the guitar does not need to sizzle. etc.

good luck. experiment. learn.

[Dr. Mordo]

there are 5 primary ways to establish a space in your mixes for the various elements:

VOLUME - mixing a specific element at a higher volume than other elements will tend to pull that element forward, and vice versa. this is the principal "emphasis" part of the mix. be careful that you do not overuse this as it cannegatively affect the overall balance of the final mix.

BALANCE OF OVERALL FREQUENCY PRESENTATION - Use EQ to establish a primary frequency location for each instrument in the mix, such that emphasized frequencies for each instrument do not clash with each other.

PAN - place each instrument in its own specific location in the L_R soundstage

REVERB - this gives control over the front-to-rear soundstage. some things, like vocals or solo instruments should be up front while supporting insruments should be placed behind them, and synths and washes even further back.

DELAY - often not even considered by beginning engineers, delay can be used as a spatial control device by utlizing time placement. i am not talking about adding a delayed signal to the original - i am talking about delaying the original signal by 20-50ms or so. this type of delay, while still realtively subliminal, makes the ear percieve the instrument in a differential manner from other elements it may be in conflict with.

one common mistake i might mention is the individual "finessing" of each instrumetn sound befor trying to mix. some folks try to "fix" each instrument before mixing them together - eg, getting the guitar to sound perfect all by itself, then trying to get the next isntrument perfect, etc, and then begin mixing - BIG mistake. by listening to single instruments alone, you will wind up utilizing a full-range frequency response to try and make each instrument sound full and balanced - when you try to mix those elements together, you will have enormous frequency overlaps and balance problems. ie, let the bass have the bottom end - the guitar does not need to try to fill those frequencies. let the cymbals have the top end - the guitar does not need to sizzle. etc.

good luck. experiment. learn.

I would add that for me this list is in order of importance. First volume, then eq, then probly tweak volume some more, then pan, then tweak volume some more, then reverb, then maybe delay.

Most important are volume, eq, and pan. Don't be afraid to eq aggressively. But knowing which freqs to boost and cut requires study.

[austingreen]

Alright two nights of mixing thus far, hope to post a mix or two for critique soon. Been hard, but everyone is excited about how it's sounding so far. A couple of questions thus far:

How do you fix that one bass note that is way louder than the rest? We tried eq, limited to the 388 thus far, and performing the mix but some of the chord changes go by too fast and we're just not going far enough down to compensate. We've been using a dbx 163x on the bass. We're trying to stay OTB for mixing, can this be fixed by the mastering engineer or can we fix it ITB on the stereo mixdown?

The stereo bus coming out of the 388 is hot. Way hot for our Digi003. Is there any problems with pulling back the master fader back to 4 or so to get a decent level far from the red?

Getting these guys to mix at a reasonable volume has been hard. They want it loud so they can hear the changes they're making better and things seem to sound better when they're loud. Also preventing them to eq a track in solo has been practically impossible. "Every studio I've been in guys do it this way" was one protest. I said this is what was advised. I believe we are unable to hear the eq changes we are making, with eveything in, as our ears are not yet trained to was my thinking. So it's hard to know if you're doing anything, good or bad.

random questions:
Why should we not mix with headphones on?
How do you track bass so it doesnt have that one louder note in the first place?@!?
Do you ever reamp a track with a mic preamp for color?
If so, how do you match levels? we were not successful at this using inserts and line inputs...
How do you get someone who hates instruments bleeding into each other's tracks to learn to love a true stereo recording?

Thanks again for the help!

[MoreSpaceEcho]

How do you fix that one bass note that is way louder than the rest? We tried eq, limited to the 388 thus far, and performing the mix but some of the chord changes go by too fast and we're just not going far enough down to compensate. We've been using a dbx 163x on the bass. We're trying to stay OTB for mixing, can this be fixed by the mastering engineer or can we fix it ITB on the stereo mixdown?

it can sorta be fixed in mastering. are you sure it's an actual problem with the bass, and not a problem with the acoustics in your room? could be that there's a resonance at whatever frequency the problematic note is.

The stereo bus coming out of the 388 is hot. Way hot for our Digi003. Is there any problems with pulling back the master fader back to 4 or so to get a decent level far from the red?

nowt wrong with that at all.

Getting these guys to mix at a reasonable volume has been hard. They want it loud so they can hear the changes they're making better

thing is, it's actually easier to hear what you're doing when monitoring quietly. takes some getting used to though. i don't think you're likely to win this battle, unfortunately.

Why should we not mix with headphones on?

because the mix is likely to not translate too well. also it's bad for your ears.

How do you track bass so it doesnt have that one louder note in the first place?@!?

an awesome bass player.

Do you ever reamp a track with a mic preamp for color?

not with a mic pre, but i reamp with amps/rooms and whatnot all the time.

If so, how do you match levels?

by ear.

How do you get someone who hates instruments bleeding into each other's tracks to learn to love a true stereo recording?

get them to stop using the damn solo button and listen to whole thing like a piece of music.

[mscottweber]

How do you fix that one bass note that is way louder than the rest?

Since 95% of my recording experience has been ITB, I do not have any personal advice on how to fix this in your specific situation. In the DAW world, this problem can be remedied by using surgical EQ to lower just the frequencies that are jumping out, automating the volume on those notes, and varying amounts of compression. It sounds like, from your post, you have attempted to do all of these things in the analog realm, your equipment just does not have the power/flexibility to pull it off as easily as can be done ITB.

Getting these guys to mix at a reasonable volume has been hard. They want it loud so they can hear the changes they're making better and things seem to sound better when they're loud. Also preventing them to eq a track in solo has been practically impossible.

Sometimes, for situations like this, it is helpful to explain WHY it is beneficial to do this.
Prolonged mixing at higher volume will fatigue your ears quicker, which will make it harder to discernably hear ANYTHING. Depending on your monitoring situation, it is often necessary to turn the volume up to judge bass levels, but myself and many others here have found that if you do most of your level-setting at a modest volume, the mix-balance translates better.
In regards to EQing with the track soloed, yes it most certainly is easier to hear the changes you are making when the track is playing by itself. The problem is that its tough to know HOW to EQ a track without listening to it in the context of the other instruments. Have you ever listened to a recording that you really love the mix on, and then tried to JUST listen to one instrument, like the snare drum or rhythm guitar? Often times when I do this I am suprised at how much I DON'T like the sound of that instrument at all, but in the context of the whole mix it sounds great.

Why should we not mix with headphones on?

Try mixing with headphones AND monitors. Each will give you a different perspective on the mix.

How do you track bass so it doesnt have that one louder note in the first place?@!?

There are so many causes for this problem, including everything from poor playing technique and sub-par instruments/amps to anomilies in room acoustics. If you search this forum, as well as elsewhere on the interwebs, there is a lot of information about it.

Do you ever reamp a track with a mic preamp for color?
If so, how do you match levels? we were not successful at this using inserts and line inputs...

I have never done this myself, but anything is possible!

How do you get someone who hates instruments bleeding into each other's tracks to learn to love a true stereo recording?

If you search around the internet, you can find that people have uploaded the multitracks from a lot of older recordings. Someone a couple years ago played me the mulstitracks from "Killer Queen". Tons of bleed all over that. But a wonderful song and a wonderful production. Maybe find something like that to play for those people who are afraid of bleed...


Bear this in mind: Every engineer does things differently. Just like there are no hard and fast rules about how you and your band should write and perform your songs, there are no hard and fast rules about how you should record and mix them. All anyone can tell you is what has worked for THEM, on THEIR projects, with THEIR ears and brain and gear. Do whatever gets you the results you are looking for. If you try doing something one way and it doesn't work, try it another way.

[trevord]

first this: http://audacity.sourceforge.net/manual- ... everb.html

now the trick is what do you change for different position

assuming you recorded in a dead space (if you didn't then applying more reverb will produce mush!!)

draw a diagram with the positions of each 'section' you want to place in the space

now keep in mind each front-to-back position will require a different predelay to reverb and delay to listener so you probably just want to have front/middle/back

also further away has more reverb than dry

depending on where you placed each section (in the front to back space) route that track to the appropriate send
and pan to suit (the track that is - we are assuming mono in/stereo returns for the reverb send)


(keep in mind the parameters for the room definition remain the same - all you are changing is the timing and relative volumes)

NOTE: some people add a global reverb because it sounds good - this also results in mush - good positioning means the ear can pick up the clues you are giving it

when in doubt look at this: http://youtu.be/-FZN-vpWKOc

now repeat to yourself........

forgot to add - the best i have seen at setting this up was
Tascam GigaPulse Convolution Reverb VST Plug-In
sadly discontinued...

[austingreen]

Hi Guys, thanks for all the help and advice thus far...
If y'all really want to help some more please listen to the tracks I posted (in a new thread) and give us some constructive criticism:

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... 071#644071

Not just on the mix but overall sound of things too.
Thanks again.
-ag