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lacquer_monkey
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Post by lacquer_monkey » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:48 am

Chris, when you don't know what you're talking about it's best not to talk.
uh... what??

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Post by rhythm ranch » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:08 am

Nick Sevilla wrote:Me, I am going back to school, and phasing out audio engineering.
Let me know if you want to sell your board.

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Post by chris harris » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:46 am

lacquer_monkey wrote:Chris, when you don't know what you're talking about it's best not to talk.
So, are you saying you can't provide any specific examples?
I'd still really like to read about all of the government harassment of guitar builders. Have you had a visit from the Feds? Can you prove it?

C'mon... you have to be able to contribute more than hyperbolic tin foil hat speak...
Last edited by chris harris on Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by chris harris » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:58 am

Nick Sevilla wrote:Look,

I own a ranch with protected species of trees, Chris. I've had to put the owner of a local wood mill in jail, after it was discovered he had illegally taken a few trees from my place. So I have been in the dealing end of the law. It took 5 years after the fact to get the guy out of business, and cost me and my family about 50,000us in legal costs.
Man... that sucks. Did you save all of the trees in the world? Well, then by your logic, what was the point?
Nick Sevilla wrote:The issue with Gibson and the FBI claims that Gibson might have forbidden wood is that the FBI stopping only one mfr.
Wait.... So, you've got evidence that other manufacturers are trafficking in illegal wood, too?!?!?!? You should alert the authorities. I assume that they're going after Gibson because they've got evidence that Gibson is involved in this stuff. I guess time will tell...
Nick Sevilla wrote:It's not going to do anything to stop the taking of illegal trees.
Pretty good chance it will stop GIBSON from taking illegal wood. Pretty good chance it will also be a nice reminder to other manufacturers to keep up with paperwork and do things legit. The CEO of Martin has basically admitted as much. BTW, the CEO of Martin is in favor of enforcing these laws.
Nick Sevilla wrote:I am not against the FBI looking. An I am not a Gibson Fanboy. I use Fenders. Even though Fenders had to move their facilities to Mexico to avoid the EPA laws against spraying nitrocellulose, a known carcinogenic, in the late 1970s.
So, should I surrender my Stratocasters because of this?
Your ethics are your ethics. If they haven't broken any laws, then they're the apple to the big fucking orange that Gibson is accused of.
Nick Sevilla wrote:And what about Chinese made instruments, which if colored red, may contain too much lead? Or Apple computers, or any computer maker which manufactures overseas, and pollutes too much in countries which have nit stringent environmental laws?
I would absolutely support MY government taking actions to curtail such things. But, as they're not illegal, they're also just silly apples in this orange discussion.
Nick Sevilla wrote:We'd end up living in caves, using no electricity.
So, what are you suggesting? No environmental regulations? This is just more paranoid hyperbolic bullshit. There's tons of it in this thread. Enough to cause an EPA methane catastrophe!
Nick Sevilla wrote:No, I think that if we as a musical community are to do anything, it is to first have Facts, then organize boycotts of companies that do things we believe are not right. I propose that if Gibson IS found guilty, THEN if anyone feels strongly enough, go ahead and organize a boycott against them.
I agree. The FACT is, they're under investigation. Another FACT is that their CEO is purposefully misleading the public, through an organized PR campaign, and trying to deflect attention away from the allegations against them. That's enough for me to boycott them.
Nick Sevilla wrote:Me, I am going back to school, and phasing out audio engineering. It's been fun, but it is time to move on for the sake of myself, and more importantly, my family.

Cheers
Good luck to you. Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion. But, good luck, wherever your path may lead.

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Nick Sevilla
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Post by Nick Sevilla » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:10 pm

chris harris wrote:Man... that sucks. Did you save all of the trees in the world? Well, then by your logic, what was the point?
Hey Chris, I only stopped one guy and his company from taking the protected trees in MY property. The point is - me and my family did something. Other than whine on an online board. Your attitude is, well... interesting, to say the least.
When we did this, it was not about "saving all the trees", but about stopping illegal logging in our local area. And not by hugging the trees, but by putting the loggers in jail. To all people who think they cannot make a difference, THAT is bullshit. Yes, you can make a difference. As far as me ragging on the F.B.I. I just do not like that organization, for various reasons, both personal and family as well.
Have you ever done anything similar? have you ever had to deal with the F.B.I. personally?
Have you Chris ever been in a situation like this? Or been in any kind of legal or other situation where you had the choice to either not do anything, or choose to uphold whatever Ethical or Morals that you were brought up with?

Your personal experience, now that I would very much like to read.
Nick Sevilla wrote:The issue with Gibson and the FBI claims that Gibson might have forbidden wood is that the FBI stopping only one mfr.
chris harris wrote:Wait.... So, you've got evidence that other manufacturers are trafficking in illegal wood, too?!?!?!? You should alert the authorities. I assume that they're going after Gibson because they've got evidence that Gibson is involved in this stuff. I guess time will tell...
You know what, this statement you make, makes no sense. If it was a sort of "attack" on me or my credibility, poor job. Hopefully, as you said, IF Gibson is guilty, then them getting the books thrown at them may help other companies in making better business decisions. This will remain to be seen until AFTER the trial, if there is one.
Nick Sevilla wrote:It's not going to do anything to stop the taking of illegal trees.
chris harris wrote:Pretty good chance it will stop GIBSON from taking illegal wood. Pretty good chance it will also be a nice reminder to other manufacturers to keep up with paperwork and do things legit. The CEO of Martin has basically admitted as much. BTW, the CEO of Martin is in favor of enforcing these laws.
Other manufacturers in the US... my comment about this issue of Gibson's not stopping the illegal logging, still holds true in other parts of the world. I'm glad the CEO of Martin is in favor of protecting endangered species. Good for him.
Nick Sevilla wrote:I am not against the FBI looking. An I am not a Gibson Fanboy. I use Fenders. Even though Fenders had to move their facilities to Mexico to avoid the EPA laws against spraying nitrocellulose, a known carcinogenic, in the late 1970s.
So, should I surrender my Stratocasters because of this?
chris harris wrote:Your ethics are your ethics. If they haven't broken any laws, then they're the apple to the big fucking orange that Gibson is accused of.
The laws you are alluding to, are only valid in the United States. Unfortunately, since they are not valid in any other country, AMERICAN companies regularly go overseas to manufacture and conduct activities that on AMERICAN soil are illegal. My issue with this is that these companies then turn around and sell us these products here in America. Ethics should not disappear as soon as you cross a political border.
Nick Sevilla wrote:And what about Chinese made instruments, which if colored red, may contain too much lead? Or Apple computers, or any computer maker which manufactures overseas, and pollutes too much in countries which have nit stringent environmental laws?
chris harris wrote:I would absolutely support MY government taking actions to curtail such things. But, as they're not illegal, they're also just silly apples in this orange discussion.
Again, you have to state that these practices are not illegal in the United States. The issue with enforcing Laws that only apply in one Country is partially why I complained about the FBI on here to begin with. The issue is not even really with whether Gibson has broken the law or not, which still remains to be seen after a trial. I am not defending Gibson anywhere in any of my posts. What I find frustrating, is that there is tow standards in American culture, which you have so brilliantly stated on here, in your above comment. I will try to summarize this double standard for you:

As long as you do it outside of our territory, we Americans, will not care how you conduct business. Just don't do "X" thing inside our territory. this double standard in our culture has driven so many companies over the years out of America and into countries which either have no environmental laws, have very lax laws, or are corrupt enough to look the other way.

The FBI enforcing a law in the USA, which cannot be enforced anywhere else, yet is directly related to illegal activities in other parts of the world, is what me and many other people call a "band-aid" law.

One of the focuses of my family, at least the lawyers, over the last 120 years, is precisely International Law.

Rather than have you and me argue pointlessly about a rather convoluted topic, it would be rather good to see how we can come up with a way to contribute to changing this double standard in our business culture.

What say you?
Nick Sevilla wrote:We'd end up living in caves, using no electricity.
chris harris wrote:So, what are you suggesting? No environmental regulations? This is just more paranoid hyperbolic bullshit. There's tons of it in this thread. Enough to cause an EPA methane catastrophe!
I am not suggesting anything, simply making a rather extreme statement about the situation. As far as me being paranoid or not, this would be between me and the posse chasing me right now... ;)
Nick Sevilla wrote:No, I think that if we as a musical community are to do anything, it is to first have Facts, then organize boycotts of companies that do things we believe are not right. I propose that if Gibson IS found guilty, THEN if anyone feels strongly enough, go ahead and organize a boycott against them.
chris harris wrote:I agree. The FACT is, they're under investigation. Another FACT is that their CEO is purposefully misleading the public, through an organized PR campaign, and trying to deflect attention away from the allegations against them. That's enough for me to boycott them.
Well it's nice to agree on something, for a change.

I propose the following action be taken by any of us who feel strongly enough about this lamentable situation :

IF Gibson is found guilty in a court of Law, then we who do not like this illegal logging nor the use of this illegal wood in musical instruments, Should Boycott gibson, and all it's related companies. We should send a letter to that company stating this boycott, and also raise awareness in our local communities about this situation.

Will you do this? I will. If Gibson is found guilty, I will destroy all product I own that were made by Gibson, in protest. I'll even make a Video and have it online.

What would you do, Chris?

Let's stop the arguing, and make something up that will make a difference.

As far as the FBI is concerned, I'd rather see them chasing after murderers, rapists, and more unsavory characters and criminals. But that's just me.

Cheers
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Post by chris harris » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:34 pm

Awww, Nick. We apparently agree on a lot more than you think we agree on. I'm actually in favor of COMPLETELY ELIMINATING TRADE with countries that exploit workers and harm the environment in the name of profit.

I heard a guy on an airplane once complaining about regulations in the U.S. and how it kills us in competition with the Chinese. He said they can have and idea today and get the product to market tomorrow. In my opinion, sinking to their level to gain some Capitalistic advantage, is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

You question my integrity. Do I practice what I preach? I constantly consider the ethics of what I'm doing. I don't always come out smelling like a rose. But, I do my best. And, that's all I ask of anyone else.

As to your suggestion that all I do is complain on the internet while your family is out fighting the good fight, you can shove that one. Firstly, because "complaining on the internet" is DISCOURSE. Welcome to 2011. It's crazy what can be accomplished by DISCUSSING THINGS in a global marketplace of ideas. And, secondly, because you don't know me. And, further, I have nothing to prove to you. I'm discussing ideas with you. I have no obligation to flaunt my activism credentials.

It seems like our biggest disagreement is over whether or not the F.B.I. is capable of investigating crimes that you don't see as high priorities, while simultaneously investigating crimes you do prioritize. And, that's just silly. Not worth arguing over.

What are you studying? Where will your next career move take you?

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Post by chris harris » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:36 pm

I think you don't like my attitude. And, that's why you think we don't agree on anything. There have been plenty of times that I've been frustrated with your shitty attitude, too (logical?). But, I recognize that we agree on a lot of topics that get discussed here.

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Nick Sevilla
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Post by Nick Sevilla » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:41 pm

chris harris wrote:I think you don't like my attitude. And, that's why you think we don't agree on anything. There have been plenty of times that I've been frustrated with your shitty attitude, too (logical?). But, I recognize that we agree on a lot of topics that get discussed here.
At least we can agree our attitudes can be changed...

My attitude...yes, it can be crappy or misinterpreted many times. At least I have an attitude... You should see where my wife works... It's like zombie land over there.

I do like discussing with you on here...

Cheers, have a great weekend.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

lacquer_monkey
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Post by lacquer_monkey » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:02 pm

While I have not personally been visited, several people I know personally have been. Did you read the article on the G.A.L. site?
As Harpo Marx said "Knowledge is power but ignorance is bliss".

You seem to spew venom on a regular basis here. Perhaps you should get in better touch with yourself and try to understand the personal issues that drive this behavior. I mean it could just be caused by living in Norman, or not.
uh... what??

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Post by chris harris » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:08 pm

Are you letting your child craft your come backs? Ooooh, I'll get in a little dig about where he's from.... Your contribution doesn't even deserve continued comment from me.

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Jitters
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Post by Jitters » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:11 pm

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm stocking up on strings and beer. They'll have to pry my Gibbies out of my cold dead hands....or at least wait until I pass out.

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Post by trollofjustice » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:07 pm

Jitters wrote:I
This is a word. A single pronoun, dude. That stands for you, yourself. And I think that's a bullshit way to start a sentence.
Jitters wrote:don't know
See? Again you're wrong! Already! You "don't know". See? You admitted it! You should just wear a sign around your neck that says "Hey! Look at me! I'm a big giant Jerkface! Also I have an ass where my face is supposed to be. And I'm a jerk!"

Jitters wrote:about the rest of you guys,
I think we all know that the rest of the world agrees with me. As long as they're not complete idiots who don't have my superior grasp of... well, everything.
Jitters wrote:but I'm stocking up on strings and beer. They'll have to pry my Gibbies out of my cold dead hands....or at least wait until I pass out.
Hey, cute joke, exclamation points times a million, scifi is great I like beer to and am secretly a human being! Smiling emoticons and anger control problems!

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Post by joel hamilton » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:46 pm

I was in South America (uruguay and argentina) for AES latin america. Thanks for this shitty thread while I was gone.

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