integrated outboard with Logic. Why go console?

[gregovertone]

i recently hooked up a nice patch system to integrate with my logic / 002r rig.

it works great, and there are no real flaws to it that i've found.

my question is........


do you really need a desk in todays DAW environment?

i'm feeling pretty comfortable without it, in my workflow.

[Nick Sevilla]

Yes.

A console is good outboard too.

How do you deal with IO latency with your 002r?

[gregovertone]

Yes.

A console is good outboard too.

How do you deal with IO latency with your 002r?

with a good buffer and low latency mode, i've yet to have an issue.

[leigh]

i recently hooked up a nice patch system to integrate with my logic / 002r rig.

it works great, and there are no real flaws to it that i've found.

my question is........

do you really need a desk in todays DAW environment?

i'm feeling pretty comfortable without it, in my workflow.

Sounds like a great way to integrate outboard processing with ITB recall. Just need to keep notes on your outboard gear settings, and you're set.

A desk is nice for some things, and for some styles of music (e.g. dub). I think if you want one for ergonomic reasons, then it definitely makes sense. For sonic reasons, however... well, that's up for debate I suppose.

Yes.

A console is good outboard too.

How do you deal with IO latency with your 002r?

with a good buffer and low latency mode, i've yet to have an issue.

Does Logic have latency compensation on its inserts? Pro Tools added that in version 9, though I think you have to manually enter the compensation amounts.

Low latency does not equal no latency, so if that's all you're relying on you might run into trouble in some situations. For example, parallel compression on a drum kit, where the dry signal stays in the box while a compressed signal gets processed outboard. Even with "low latency" you'd be hearing phasey artifacts once you recombine the two.

Leigh

[drumsound]

There are plenty of people not using consoles. I like how everything is right ther in front of you, but I also hate and don't use a DAW so take my answer with a grain of salt.

[llmonty]

I have been without my board for a few weeks as the master section gets replaced. Mind you this is my first set up with a proper board and I have been using it for only a few months. Before that I was 100% DAW/ITB.

I am hating ITB only. I went through setting up in PT9 the inserts so I can use the outboard as an insert. I am prolly doing some things wrong, but I have found I get errors about the routing, some other input using the insert, which I can't find anywhere, and other hassles that I am sure I can track down, but are not intuitive.

Mixing/recording with the board sounds better, is a faster workflow, easier to troubleshoot, and super ergonomic. Works for me. Surprised how well as I am not a dyed in the wool console guy. I am loving that I didn't have to look at the puter screens unless I am editing or tweaking a plug-in and I find myself just doing less tweaking to get a mix happenin'.

[leigh]

Interesting that it only took you a few months to get so used to mixing with the console. I'm in a similar situation, and curious how I'll adapt to console work. On the negative side, not having instant recall is what I think will take the most getting used to, and for some projects, I'm thinking it just won't make sense... but we'll see.

I am hating ITB only. I went through setting up in PT9 the inserts so I can use the outboard as an insert. I am prolly doing some things wrong, but I have found I get errors about the routing, some other input using the insert, which I can't find anywhere, and other hassles that I am sure I can track down, but are not intuitive.

Yes, it can be a devil figuring out where some unwanted signal is getting into an insert. I'd suggest working with I/O Settings page - save (export) your current I/O setup, then start deleting stuff until you find that unwanted signal (well, until you hear it go away). Once you know what it is, you can restore (import) the I/O setup you saved, and just go change the problem routing that you found.

cheers,
Leigh

[llmonty]

thanks! I will try that!

I have only done rough mixes for now and haven't sent any off as finals for mastering. So I am talking more of the getting the mix like 80% there. I haven't decided for at least this current project if I will print stems back into the box and then automate, or will just print the 2 bus with some manual movements and/or some pre-automation for major things like plug ins, mutes, etc.

Another thing I am really digging, and this might sound stupid, but I am mixing more with my ears than eyes. Like dialing in eq for instance. General sweetening, extreme tone shaping, surgical, etc. My ITB way was to set up an eq plug and sweep around visually to define the curves. I would often use a spectral analyzer so see what was happening at the input and output. Instructive for sure. Lately I have been using the board eq, which is pretty flexible, and then testing against what I would have done with plugs. Glad to see I am getting in the same ballpark without the visual crutch.

[leigh]

Another thing I am really digging, and this might sound stupid, but I am mixing more with my ears than eyes. Like dialing in eq for instance...

That's definitely a plus!

Not to get too far off topic, but out of curiosity, which console have you been using?

cheers,
Leigh

[llmonty]

Neotek SII I got the the NY Metropolitan Opera. Still a work in progress getting it functional, but really digging it. You?

[Z-Plane]

For years I have kept consoles with many channels left static at 0db from my DAW. The most useful aspect has been routing options for summing, busses, sends and monitoring purposes, but I'm just about to lose the desk and replace with a video switcher (with balanced audio matrix) so I can just press a button for the desired function. Lets see how that goes, they can be found pretty cheap on the bay.

[Nick Sevilla]

For years I have kept consoles with many channels left static at 0db from my DAW. The most useful aspect has been routing options for summing, busses, sends and monitoring purposes, but I'm just about to lose the desk and replace with a video switcher (with balanced audio matrix) so I can just press a button for the desired function. Lets see how that goes, they can be found pretty cheap on the bay.

Be prepared to be underwhelmed by the "sound quality" of a video switcher.

Cheers

[leigh]

Neotek SII I got the the NY Metropolitan Opera. Still a work in progress getting it functional, but really digging it. You?

A Trident Series 65, with an all new power supply and opamp/cap upgrades. Have only been using it for tracking so far, but will be trying some mixing projects on it soon.

[cjogo]

Depends somewhat on your background, for me at least. I really could not work with a mouse as a main controller. Need buttons and faders .. Our DAW has the faders /etc. onboard ...very little mouse driving. The studio up the road has a new Toft 16 channel , with Logic > for their tracking ... But when it comes to post > I'm lost without the faders on the mixdown.

[Z-Plane]

For years I have kept consoles with many channels left static at 0db from my DAW. The most useful aspect has been routing options for summing, busses, sends and monitoring purposes, but I'm just about to lose the desk and replace with a video switcher (with balanced audio matrix) so I can just press a button for the desired function. Lets see how that goes, they can be found pretty cheap on the bay.

Be prepared to be underwhelmed by the "sound quality" of a video switcher.

Cheers

Good point about the switcher. I've had it on the bench, tested in parallel from reference tones, and here's what I measured.

The volts/dB input to output is only a 0.1 dB drop

A sine wave input shows it clips at exactly +4db

The antiphase null test was almost perfect, but I couldn't nudge the DAW resolution precise enough to guarantee matched levels.

Pink noise - freq response identical

Sine sweeps - this test discovered that my DAW in/out chain produces a second and third harmonic at -90dB using a sine routed direct from output to input. The switcher raised these harmonics by nearly 20dB, thus peaking at -70dB to reference.

Listening - no noticeable difference in sound quality or image.

All in all, I think that's good enough for a monitor switcher and even routing some outboard. I'm not sure how to interpret the harmonics issue, nor have I tested the rest of my kit to know if the same thing happens elsewhere. Any thoughts?