Advice on recording acc guitar + voice

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MakeWar
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Advice on recording acc guitar + voice

Post by MakeWar » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:59 am

Hi guys!

I'm going to record an album in a couple of months and I'm already looking around for ideas to have it planned and focus as much as possible in the performance and not the technical stuff. The thing is that I'd like to record acoustic guitar and vocals at the same time, cause I've never had success with overdubbing, it just comes out really fake and I hate that.

I've been reading here and there about ideas on how to get this done with the more natural sound and the best quality and I've kind of found some things that I'm going to try, but I'd like to ask you guys what you would do in my possition and with the gear I have.

Mics:
-Shure Sm7b
-Shure beta57, Sm57
-Oktava Mk-012 x 2
-Oktava Mk-219 modded by Michael Jolly
-t.bone RB500 x 2 (thinking abput getting those modded too)

Pre:
-FMR RNP
-M-audio DMP-3

Comp:
FMR RNC

Interface:
-RME Fireface 400 (that's two more mic pres)

I'm recording in Logic 9.

So, how would you approach this? Which mic would you use for vocals and which for guitar? I use a Martin D28 with 0.13 strings. Where would you place the mics? I can do this at a big and good sounding room or in a small one which doesn't sound as good, would you also use room mics?

Thanks in advance!! I hope I can get some good advice!!

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:03 am

I would record the acoustic with an sdc pointed at about the 12th fret (standard set-up), and an LDC pointed towards the guitar, in a position somewhere that sounds good and doesn't give too many phase problems. If it's an electro-acoustic, I'd also take a line-out from the pick-up to mix in for some brightness (sounds like crap alone, but can really help an already decent acoustic recording). Don't put anything directly in the soundhole, unless you like a lot of overblown "woof" in your guitar sound, or you really enjoy spending lots of time tweaking EQ.

I'd choose an LDC that sounds good on my (your) voice (audition them if you don't know which to choose yet; probably the Octava will sound great), and try to set it up so that the null of the pick-up pattern is facing the guitar as much as possible (while trying to keep as much voice out of the guitar track as well).

This is all standard stuff, which I'm sure you know or have read. The thing is to experiment and listen; only your ears can tell you which room or mike is best to get the sounds that you want. There's no "formula," you just have to go for it, and if you're married to this approach, learn to love the bleed. You might want to find pre-recorded examples of other material in the same vein as yours, and reverse engineer the way those sounds were recorded and mixed. Use that CD material as reference while you record, and especially at mix time.

GJ

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Nick Sevilla
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Post by Nick Sevilla » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:38 am

Hi,

I would use the two TBone ribbon microphones, as they have figure eight patterns which lend themselves quite well to recording an ac gtr and vocal performer. Also use two equal mic pres, even if they are the ones from your interface. This will be best for making the two sources sound as similar as possible.

Use one microphone directed at the guitar, pointing DOWN towards the 12th fret, in such a way that the null, the dead sopt of the mic is pointing towards your face.

When setting up this mic you will want a friend to move the mic while you play and sing and listen to headphones until you get the LEAST AMOUNT of vocal in this microphone.

Then mute this mic for now.

Once you have this mic, move on to setting up the other mic, and point this one at your face, again listening to the vocal until you get the LEAST AMOUNT of guitar in this mic.

Once this is done, unmute both mics, and do a final adjustment until you get the best sound from both mics together. This should be minimal movements of each mic to make the sound "fuller"

As a third mic for this, I would put up the Oktaba Large condenser placed about 3-5 feet infront of you, to get some room ambience, and to glue the sound together.

Cheers
Last edited by Nick Sevilla on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fuzz
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Post by fuzz » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:39 am

Pick your vocal mic and position it with a slight upwards tilt (as seen on Geedy Lee in the "Limelight video). This can help lessen plosives since the diaphragm is angled from the mouth and, depending on the room, avoid reflections off the floor or backing surface.

Mic the guitar with a mic in a figure 8 pattern. I usually use a 414, but the most important part is the pattern. Position the mic horizontally and face the null of the figure 8 straight at the singers mouth. This usually has the face of the mic pointing slightly down towards the guitar and the ass out into the room.

I shit you not... I have done this numerous times where there is zero bleed from the vox into the gtr mic and very minimal bleed into the vox mic. I think there is a photo of Willie Nelson being tracked with this same setup. You can tell because Lanois has the Neumann sideways so the figure 8 pattern null is towards the voice.

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Post by Cyan421 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:08 pm

yep what these cats say is good advice.

Two figure 8 mics with their respective nulls pointed at the opposite source.
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Post by drumsound » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:48 am

When I do things like this my goto is a pair of XY SDC right around the 12th fret with the vocal mic directly about the capsules of the guitar mics. I try to use a figure 8 on the vocal to keep the guitar out of the vocal as much as possible, though I don't often worry about the vocal in the guitar so long as there aren't wonky phase issues (Always set things up in mono).

I also like a stereo room pair. Mics and set will really depend on my mood that day.

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Post by oldguitars » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:44 am

+ 10000 on the figure 8 technique....


It's my go to approach for this type of situation...
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Post by ashcat_lt » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:43 am

I don't really get paid for this, and don't have much of a mic selection. In fact, I prefer to avoid microphones when possible. I have recently made a few pretty successful (in that they sound good to me and made the performer happy "the best I've ever sounded") acoustic/vocal recordings, though.

These were in relatively dead spaces, but a good sounding room would be even better.

Sometimes I stick my EV635a a couple feet in front of the performer.

Sometimes I use my AT stereo mic a foot or so out front, about halfway between the guitar and the mouth, oriented up and down so that one capsule is pointing more at the vox and the other more at the guitar.

Of course, without knowing quite what genre or aesthetic you're shooting for...

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Post by RoyMatthews » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:59 am

I know this doesn't help the OP but I'd figure I'd post this here anyway.

In a few days I have a session coming up in a barn with a band fronted by an acoustic guitar/vocalist. I'm going to try a couple of things out but initially I'm going to go with an SM7 on the vocal to help minimize bleed. On the guitar I'm going to try my Shure VP88 stereo M/S mic. I'll record the mid and side separately. If it works in stereo great, if not I can just use the mid signal. I also will play around with compressing either the mid or side and keying it to the vocal. So if there's too much vocal in the guitar mic and it moves around in the stereo field, I can have the side compress with the vocal and keep it a little more centered when he sings.

And if it doesn't work in stereo I can move the mic and use the figure 8 on the guitar. I might as well aim the cardioid mic at the singer and see if I can just use it as two separate signals.

Sorry if I'm blue-skying it here. I'm kinda excited.
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Post by alcoyot » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:57 am

Just a question out of curiosity. How did it end up sounding fake doing it one at a time? It makes so much more sense to me to do it that way, because you can put all your focus into each thing, instead of trying to serve 2 masters.
To record both at the same time when you don't have to just doesn't make any sense to me at all if you're trying to get the best performance possible...

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:16 pm

alcoyot wrote:Just a question out of curiosity. How did it end up sounding fake doing it one at a time? It makes so much more sense to me to do it that way, because you can put all your focus into each thing, instead of trying to serve 2 masters.
To record both at the same time when you don't have to just doesn't make any sense to me at all if you're trying to get the best performance possible...
Many artists perform better while playing and singing.

And I have also seen many artists who cannot separate the singing from the playing. It is how they express themselves. It is natural for them to do this, and it would be unnatural to try and change that.

Cheers
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Post by MakeWar » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:56 pm

Sorry I haven't said anything 'till now!

Thanks so much for all the tips! I think I'm reducing my choices to the two figure 8's vs best mic on vocals + figure 8 for guitar. I might add the small condensers in XY to get some room ambience too.

Someone asked about the style... my voice kind of sounds similar to Conor Oberst (Bright Eyes) and I'd like the guitar to sound natural but soft, I don't use picks and I mix soft strumming and finger style.

The fake feeling with the separate takes is simply that I perform worse that way, and believe me I've tried both!

Thank you so much again! If you want to share more ideas I'm open for more!

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Post by Brian Brock » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:40 pm

I have been happy with the fig 8 method; also I have gotten interesting sounds with 3 mics, eg various dynamics at the guitar neck joint, lower bout, and voice; also a stereo mic about three feet away in a smallish room seems to be sounding good to me revently.

I guess you could do three fig 8 mics and get a close stereo guitar with still not too much voice bleed. Maybe also the stereo room if you want to have options in the mix.

You might like to use something like a little labs IBP to give yourself a bit less to worry about regarding phase issues. Moving mics around in front of yourself playing guitar and singing wearing headphones is kind of complicated, and then when you come back to do another track everything seems to be in a bit different place.

There's a VST version of the Reaper EQ that has a pretty decent IBP type phase rotation.ice bleed. Maybe also the stereo room if you want to have options in the mix.

You might like to use something like a little labs IBP to give yourself a bit less to worry about regarding phase issues. Moving mics around in front of yourself playing guitar and singing wearing headphones is kind of complicated, and then when you come back to do another track everything seems to be in a bit different place.

There's a VST version of the Reaper EQ that has a pretty decent IBP type phase rotation.

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Post by mjau » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:19 pm

I'll echo the figure-8 recommendation on vocals, too. I've been working on my own material for a few months, and my singing is markedly better when I'm also playing, so I end up often tracking acoustic guitar with vocals.

A pair of Oktava mc012's in x/y around the 12th fret for the guitar - sometimes I use the cardioid caps, but more often use the hypercardioids. For vocals, I like the sound of an AT4050 in figure 8. Keep in mind that some mics sound pretty different going between cardioid and other patterns. One thing I like about the 4050 is that it's pretty consistent sounding no matter the pattern.

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Post by kslight » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:06 pm

One mic, probably sdc a few feet away and angled slightly towards your oral cavity. Possibly experiment with an omni pattern if you've got one. Perhaps have an assistant tweaking the mic position for you until you find it.

I'm all for this in the given scenario. No phase issues, sounds natural, and forces you to commit. I think you'll blow your brains out trying to mix this without phase issues using half a dozen mics...

Less is more.

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