Loud guitars vs. Big guitars

[Nick Sevilla]

Nirvana - On a Plain (Nevermind) = big guitars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDzZECKoGuY

BUTCH VIG.

MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY LAYERED GUITARS, ALL WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT SOUNDS / EQ.

Cheers

[witchfeet]

Just getting back to basics with my thoughts. It sounds like an AC30 at edge of breakup with single coils to me.

Part of your problem may just be you aren't using the right amp/pickups/speakers.

[Shellacattack]

BUTCH VIG.

MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY LAYERED GUITARS, ALL WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT SOUNDS / EQ.

Cheers

I'm trying to avoid the "big guitar" sound. I merely posted the Nirvana track to show what I consider "big", compared to the Blur track, which I consider "loud". I'm trying to achieve the Blur sound.

[kayagum]

[I've got my 15 watt amp dimed, running through a 4x12 Marshall cab...

People automatically assume big speaker = loud sound.

What ohm load is the 4x12? What speakers are in there (wattage rating, type, etc.)? What's your 15 watt amp?

Lots to think about in terms of matching up your rig- and although I don't know all the ins and outs, I'd definitely look at your speaker cab. For example, a 16 ohm load is not going to return the sound you want, especially if your amp is expecting 8 or 4.

Plus, different speaker cabs have different characters. A Marshall 4x12 is not going to replicate that Blur clip.

I'd look at an open back 1x12, 2x12, even a 1x8 with a lower wattage rating, and the right ohm load, depending on your amp. Maybe even sacrifice an old speaker to get that sound. I'll let the other experts on this board to recommend favorite speaker cones to accomplish your goal.

Just don't mismatch in the wrong direction- a low load cab will fry your amp.

I agree with the earlier post that the Blur clip you posted is just a cranked AC30.

[mscottweber]

Just don't mismatch in the wrong direction- a low load cab will fry your amp.

Could you, or someone else, possibly clarify this a bit? I always thought that mismatching the load in either direction was a bad move, but is it ok to have one be higher/lower than the other? And WHICH way is the wrong way?

[Nick Sevilla]

BUTCH VIG.

MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY LAYERED GUITARS, ALL WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT SOUNDS / EQ.

Cheers

I'm trying to avoid the "big guitar" sound. I merely posted the Nirvana track to show what I consider "big", compared to the Blur track, which I consider "loud". I'm trying to achieve the Blur sound.

Ah. In the Blur case then, make everything else in the mix softer.

Even the lead vocals.

As far as tones are concerned, well, whatever floats your boat should work...

And in that Blur example, the dude is playing with ATTITUDE. No mic technique or any amp can substitute for that. The guy is flailing the strings hard. That is principally why it sounds like that.

Cheers

[CraigS63]

No one mentioned feedback yet, loud guitars do that.

[jgimbel]

Just don't mismatch in the wrong direction- a low load cab will fry your amp.

Could you, or someone else, possibly clarify this a bit? I always thought that mismatching the load in either direction was a bad move, but is it ok to have one be higher/lower than the other? And WHICH way is the wrong way?

I use my 4 ohm amps (Fender Bassman) into my homemade 8 ohm cabs (one is a 1x12) all the time, no issues. As far as I've heard and from my experience, no issues this way. But I'd never use an 8 ohm amp into a 4 ohm cab. I've basically heard it described as the speaker trying to pull more power from the amp than it can give.

I agree about the AC30 cranked. To me that sound definitely has to do with sag, as another poster mentioned. Even my Vox Pathfider with the volume and gain cranked and the "boost" on get in that family of sounds.

[Spindrift]

I think there are a couple of things making Graham's guitar sound loud on that song.

The first is the bass. Notice how the guitar sounds big in the intro, but when the bass kicks in, the guitar suddenly sounds much louder. As far as I can tell, the guitar tone hasn't actually changed yet, but doubling up the part with a really fuzzy bass really affects how it comes across.

The second is what he is using to achieve his tone when the vocals come in. The "amp about to blow up" sound is not necessarily created by an amp being cranked all the way. Sometimes that works, but sometimes you just loose definition and clarity. The part sounds very much like a combination of the amp (usually a Marshal Super Lead) and his DOD Punkifier pedal, possibly with some RAT thrown in as well.

a.

[rhythm ranch]

From Guitar Geek

Graham's set up (live, anyway):

[kayagum]

The Power Soaks would allow for some major power tube saturation.

OP: what 15 watt amp are you using?

[Gregg Juke]

From Frank Gryner in the Audix Newsletter... Some good information that may unfortunately be more grist for the "Loud VS. Big" debate, however, it's still an interesting read:

>>>>First of all, a great guitar tone is created at the source, not through your recording gear. All that studio stuff is a distant second to a decent pickup, guitar, amp and speaker combination. If you get these elements to sound amazing in the room, then your recording signal path becomes mostly defensive?it doesn?t add much, but it also shouldn?t introduce line distortion, out-of-phase signals, overcompression or any eq indiscretions.

Guitarwise, it?s good to have at least one Les Paul or equivalent on hand with a humbucker or P90 pickup in the bridge position. I find that the most usable and stackable guitar tone comes from tube amp gain and generally not from distortion pedals. A 4 x 12 cabinet loaded with good-sounding 25 or 30 Watt speakers, isolated in an acoustically dead space, generally yields the best results when building an in-your-face guitar tone like this. Try to have more than one tube amp head to choose from; I prefer tubes rather than a solid-state head when going for this sound.

While dialing in the tone at the console, I subscribe to the Ten Minute Theory. That?s how long your ears and your brain can typically endure loud distorted guitar before you start to lose objectivity. Heavy guitars need to be monitored loud at the board in order to determine if they ?rock? or not. Generally, if you don?t get a basic sound in ten minutes, it tends only to get worse from there.

During this time, mic choice and placement should be made based on what you hear in the room vs. in your monitors. You usually can?t go wrong with a single SM57, close and just off-center of the most full-sounding speaker in the cabinet. Make the source sound slam and then concentrate on not wrecking the sound at the board. Any eq should only compensate for what?s not translating through the recording signal path. A little compression, and possibly a wide-bandwidth upper midrange boost, can keep the perceived loudness high and the overall sound energetic.

The Less Gain, More Pain theory can tough to grasp. Most players are accustomed to the ?live show? mentality of pulling out all the stops in one pass, whereas in the studio we have the luxury of constructing something considerably more superhuman, piece by piece. Knowing this, a slightly cleaner tone will layer better than one that is already eating up most of the audible frequency range on its own. Distortion, by definition, is a clipping of the waveform. So, too much saturation actually makes for a smaller, less aggressive sound. It?s important to have a well-defined tonal center that doesn?t get fuzzed-out or over-distorted to the point where the harmonic content of the chords becomes convoluted, especially if your riffs involve anything more complex than root-fifth power chords.

On additional tracks you may want to go even cleaner for more subliminal layering options later. When doubling riffs, change the guitar, pickup, amp, or cab, so the tone isn?t identical, for better stereo imaging and blend with other tracks. Do not duplicate the same identical sound! It?s redundant and can lead to mic phase problems that actually hurt your tracks. You can sometimes dramatically add size with a layered baritone or 7-string guitar in chord inversions, but the lower you go, the less saturation you want, so the bottom end stays clear.

By themselves, these tracks can sound completely uninspiring, but if you can suspend your disbelief long enough to get them placed in context, you?ll soon understand their value. After some trial and error, and four to six successful guitar passes later, you?ll be able to balance out these recorded components in a stereo configuration to create a homogeneous, super-aggressive guitar entity with more unsurpassed clarity than any one individual pass could never achieve on its own.

At this point, you can experiment with more radical eq carving on individual sounds to make a more cohesive blend. With more practice, you?ll acquire the ear for what makes an ideally combinable guitar sound, and you?ll be able to bypass much of the guesswork that is initially involved in recording this way. You can feel some satisfaction that you?ve done your part to keep rock off its deathbed for another day.<<<<

GJ

[Darlington Pair]

One mis matching cabinets with amps, it is generally accepted (by people that use science and math to prove these things instead of interwebs voodoo) that a 2:1 mismatch in either direction is OK.

Most guitar amps have their ext speaker jacks wired in parallel with the main jack. For example, the Fender Vibrolux has two 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel giving 4 ohms, the ext speaker is in parallel, Fender extension cabs are also four ohms, so the amp is seeing a 2 ohm load, and they've been doing it for as long as there have been Vibroluxes, if they didn't want you to run it at 2 ohms then they would have put a series jack so you would run at 8 ohms when using a Fender extension cab or they would wire their speakers in series to be 16 ohms.

Personally, I don't really care for the sound of a downward mismatch and prefer to go up, but 2:1 in either direction is perfectly safe.

[Recycled_Brains]

2:1 in either direction is perfectly safe.

I have to disagree. It's been my experience that running your head at twice the impedence of the cab seriously taxes and shortens the lifespan of your power tubes (my tech confirmed this). It happened to me by accident after someone hooked my rig up wrong after borrowing my speaker cable (I had no idea). Head made it about a 1/2 hour before the fuse blew. 1 2 hour practice and 1 short gig later, my amp was in the shop getting a new set of 6550s.

The opposite... jury is still out... I don't think it sounds good, personally, but it's never caused me any problems. I still avoid it whenever possible.

[Darlington Pair]

That's fine. It's best to run a matched load, I'm not trying to start an argument. These things spread through the internet with no scientific basis and sometimes that annoys me because it is often compounded by an amp tech that will let you believe that someone else is to blame for your amp blowing up so that you'll pay him. I was an amp tech for a number of years myself.

But, humor me and read this quote from geofex.com in which the very reputable R.G. Keen explains how this all works...

Q: Why do I have to match speakers to the output impedance of the amp?
A: You'll get the most power out of the amp if the load is matched.

Q:Will it hurt my amp/output transformer/tubes to use a mismatched speaker load?
Simple A: Within reason, no.
Say for example you have two eight ohm speakers, and you want to hook them up to an amp with 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps. How do you hook them up?

For most power out, put them in series and tie them to the 16 ohm tap, or parallel them and tie the pair to the 4 ohm load.

For tone? Try it several different ways and see which you like best. "Tone" is not a single valued quantity, either, and in fact depends hugely on the person listening. That variation in impedance versus frequency and the variation in output power versus impedance and the variation in impedance with loading conspire to make the audio response curves a broad hump with ragged, humped ends, and those humps and dips are what makes for the "tone" you hear and interpret. Will you hurt the transformer if you parallel them to four ohms and hook them to the 8 ohm tap? Almost certainly not. If you parallel them and hook them to the 16 ohm tap? Extremely unlikely. In fact, you probably won't hurt the transformer if you short the outputs. If you series them and hook them to the 8 ohm or 4 ohm tap? Unlikely - however... the thing you CAN do to hurt a tube output transformer is to put too high an ohmage load on it. If you open the outputs, the energy that gets stored in the magnetic core has nowhere to go if there is a sudden discontinuity in the drive, and acts like a discharging inductor. This can generate voltage spikes that can punch through the insulation inside the transformer and short the windings. I would not go above double the rated load on any tap. And NEVER open circuit the output of a tube amp - it can fry the transformer in a couple of ways.

Extended A: It's almost never low impedance that kills an OT, it's too high an impedance.

The power tubes simply refuse to put out all that much more current with a lower-impedance load, so death by overheating with a too-low load is all but impossible - not totally out of the question but extremely unlikely. The power tubes simply get into a loading range where their output power goes down from the mismatched load. At 2:1 lower-than-matched load is not unreasonable at all.

If you do too high a load, the power tubes still limit what they put out, but a second order effect becomes important.

There is magnetic leakage from primary to secondary and between both half-primaries to each other. When the current in the primary is driven to be discontinuous, you get inductive kickback from the leakage inductances in the form of a voltage spike.

This voltage spike can punch through insulation or flash over sockets, and the spike is sitting on top of B+, so it's got a head start for a flashover to ground. If the punchthrough was one time, it wouldn't be a problem, but the burning residues inside the transformer make punchthrough easier at the same point on the next cycle, and eventually erode the insulation to make a conductive path between layers. The sound goes south, and with an intermittent short you can get a permanent short, or the wire can burn though to give you an open there, and now you have a dead transformer.

So how much loading is too high? For a well designed (equals interleaved, tightly coupled, low leakage inductances, like a fine, high quality hifi) OT, you can easily withstand a 2:1 mismatch high.

For a poorly designed (high leakage, poor coupling, not well insulated or potted) transformer, 2:1 may well be marginal. Worse, if you have an intermittent contact in the path to the speaker, you will introduce transients that are sharper and hence cause higher voltages. In that light, the speaker impedance selector switch could kill OT's if two ways - if it's a break befor make, the transients cause punch through; if it's a make before break, the OT is intermittently shorted and the higher currents cause burns on the switch that eventually make it into a break before make. Turning the speaker impedance selector with an amp running is something I would not chance, not once.

For why Marshalls are extra sensitive, could be the transformer design, could be that selector switch. I personally would not worry too much about a 2:1 mismatch too low, but I might not do a mismatch high on Marshalls with the observed data that they are not all that sturdy under that load. In that light, pulling two tubes and leaving the impedance switch alone might not be too bad, as the remaining tubes are running into a too-low rather than too-high load.

The source page is http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/taffram.htm it's a really great place to learn about electronics and I highly recommend it to everybody.

If you still disagree with me, that's fine, I won't derail this thread with my opinions on mismatch anymore after this post.


On the OT, I find that amps that are breaking up in the power stage sound loud, they don't necessarily have to be big amps, I did it recently with a 5 watt Kalamazoo I modded. It doesn't have a lot of top or bottom end, so it sat pretty well in the mix but I pushed it's power amp into submission, mic'd it with an e609 and a Neumann v476b. I tend to agree that feedback can make things seem loud too.