Consoles ideal for "heavy" music (rock, punk, meta

evilaudio · Post by **evilaudio** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:05 am

Hello community!

Sorry this is LONG. Wanted to be thorough...

I need some advice from those with direct experience with consoles and (hopefully) heavier music production, but will certainly take any opinion into consideration. I have decided, for me, the next logical step is a console. After about 14 years, I know for sure that I will never stop AE'ing, so I want to make an investment that will last and bring more perceived value and improved options (and maybe even sound) to my work and studio. I primarily work with rock, punk, and metal bands, but definitely take on whatever comes my way.

Here are my workflow details: I track with lots of external pres (7th circle, racked PM1000, DVC, portico, etc...) into an Aurora16 then to DAW. I mix analog (stems from DAW/Aurora) with outboard comps/EQ's and a Folcrom Summing Mixer (all on a TT patch bay) captured by a Masterlink. I like the Folcrom and am generally very happy with my results, but nothing beats walking into a studio and seeing a nice big console glowing at the heart of everything, and quite frankly I just love the look and feel of a console! I like the idea of additional (board) pre amps to compliment my already well rounded preamp aresenal for tracking, and the ability to sub-mix things (like top/bottom snare) to one track before the A/D would be cool!. Plus, the much more elaborate routing possibilities I'd get from a console is a big advantage.

I've been researching lots recently and I've noticed a few statements like: "Tridents are not so great for metal" due to this and that (Mr. Garges?), and "Tofts are kind of soft or dark or blurry" (or whatever) and all these kinds of subjective opinions. Having absolutely ZERO direct experience using big analog desks with metal production myself, I need some advice as to what would be good contenders to search for with the genres I work with. I believe I've read/heard that MCI desks could be nice for heavier stuff, but not sure why. I've worked on an MCI in Nashville once and it was really really nice and an amazing experience, but the music was more country-rock oriented and I didn't have a chance to really play around with it due to time. I've owned and used Mackies and Tascams (both analog and digital) in my own studios before and definitely know my way around mixers.

I'm willing to invest a good amount of dough and realize the good stuff isn't cheap. I'd need at least 24 channels and at least 4 busses or groups. Direct outs would be nice. In-line or "split" would be great! 4 or more aux sends would be nice. Usable-to-awesome EQs (a weak point in my studio). TRULY modular would be almost necessary (I realize old desks need maintenance so I don't want to have to disassemble the studio to fix problems that arise).

From my research, the Toft ATB V2 series looked great. I like the smaller footprint and lighter weight (but size is not a big issue 4 me), cool look (wood! ...and I LIKE the colors!), can buy one new so it would have a warranty, it's a new console so maintenance, etc. would theoretically be non-existent for a good while, and of course the EQ's people mainly tend to focus these boards' hype on! But, things that scare me off are the various problems people are having, unreliability, non-modular construction, and especially now I read some people saying it's not that great for metal (for lack of a better term) because it's "soft"...? Everything about that board read to me like a perfect fit, but I want something that'll last, keep or appreciate in value, and first and foremost have lots of headroom and maybe some character for heavy stuff! I'd hate to drop a lot of money and the pains of installing to not have a noticeable improvement/difference for what I want/need/do;-). I like what I've read about the GhostLE, but have no idea what it "sounds" like.

Of course, I understand there are many more variables that contribute to the final "sound" than a mixing console is going to impart, but if there are particular models more suitable for heavy-music production and have a character that would be complimentary, I'd love to know about it!! I also realize that MCI and a lot of others may be out of my price range, but I could get lucky I suppose. I don't mind a little maintenance, but can't be down for a long time (and I am certainly not an electrical engineer). An I/O panel would be nice, but I am not afraid of soldering.

FWIW - I've already tried a PM1000. While the build is incredible, I cannot do anything with the extremely limited routing that desk has and don't have time or means to modify it to death. That Sound Workshop 34C Bradford Reed is selling looks like a possible contender, but have no idea what it sounds like and the wiring (and potential TON of work it may need) scares the hell outta me! Plus it's like 1000 miles away...

Thank you very much!

kslight · Post by **kslight** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:16 am

Just tracked an EP worth of thrash metal to 2" 24 track MCI through an MCI board... Don't remember the exact model, but same era as MCI JH24 tape machines...

Sounded great. Board like that definitely will need rebuilt if it hasn't been already. My opinion about a great metal band sound is vibe, how tight the band is, and good miking decisions. This band I cut with no click, did 5 songs in 2 days. Live takes plus overdub solos, vocals, bass. The whole band was in the same room except the drummer and the vocalist were in booths. When I overdubbed guitars I had the guitar players track together.

API and Chandler pres are pretty popular for metal also!

sessionsatstudiom · Post by **sessionsatstudiom** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:29 am

I have no experience with the Toft so I can't comment on the sound of it. The Ghost is a solid console that is pretty vanilla. Gives you what you put in and doesn't mess with the sound. I have owned a ghost and liked it very much.

I am not sure how tech savvy you are? But getting into an older console can be a great thing, but a maintenance hassle. Parts sometimes can be hard to find, parts not be made anymore etc...

I have owned a Trident 70 also (toft is supposed to be similar). That was a solid console and sounded great. The equalizer on electric guitar was great, had depth, punch, and good sonics. Not the ultimate console but a good solid console.

As for metal it would be a fine metal console. The ghost also would be fine for metal but the EQ is a little softer (not as aggressive) as the trident. But with plug ins or outboard EQ it could do the trick.

I am not sure of your budget but for me the API consoles are my ultimate analog console. They just sound good without doing much from the get go. Gets you excited to mix. Then the processing takes over and Wow. Neves have a similar effect.

Most people do have the money needed to get an API console Me being one of them. But just throwing another opinion into the pot.

Mike

brew · Post by **brew** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:36 am

First off, no audio console you could buy is going to appreciate in value. They aren't handmade musical instruments. The best financial situation you could hope for is to buy a current model second-hand, then you can turn around and sell it for about what you paid. I'd expect anything made in the last 6 years to be as reliable as new as long as it's working right now, but budget another 5k to fix anything that breaks out of warranty.

I think you'll find as many opinions about consoles as speakers. Console's are not designed for specific musical genres, and any of the ones you mention I think will do the job. Rich Costey mixes on a Neve. Much of Metallica was an SSL. API is currently fashionable among Brooklyn "rockers." They are all getting good sounds.

There's a good article in the Oct 3 New Yorker about the science of brand names. It seems obvious that if you asked a focus group what the word "Toft" brings to mind, you'd get "soft," right? But does this really mean anything, other than an underlying feeling the word itself gives you?

I think 75% of this decision should be based on if the ergonomics agree with you. For instance, I find a 1608 bonkers for mixing because of the channel strip layout. SSL is much more friendly in this regard, which is why they're such popular mixers. Amek, Trident--it seems love/hate for those when I've asked around, but don't have personal experience on them.

If you're gonna spend this much, do some research, contact owners directly and see what their reliability experience is. They're easy enough to find online. Go to studios that have them and use them for a few hours. Go to AES.

evilaudio · Post by **evilaudio** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:51 am

Thanx for your responses so far, guys! (I knew I was opening a big can-o-worms with this one!). I'm not as naive as it sounds, I just got some wording wrong... There's no one locally that has experience with what I do (older-school punk/metal production), so I come here to hang and discuss things.

Kslight: sounds like an awesome experience! FWIW - I do have A12 (API clones) preamps currenty and love 'em (as well as N72's).

Okay, let's just forget I said anything about appreciation in value, that was dumb. I fully understand consoles are WAY less expensive than they were when they were new. I also realize there's no "majic desk" for specific genres, just looking for advice maybe on ones to avoid I guess (and stuff I may not be aware of)... I found out a lot of my favorite records were tracked and mixed through a Seck and a Fostex E16, so go figure...

I also want to state that API, Neve, and SSL are flat out not going to be affordable for me at this stage. No way I could afford one of those! I am however aware that there are comparable-quality desks like Soundworkshop, etc... that aren't as "boutique" of a price out there. That's kind of more like what I'm referring to here. My budget is right around where a new Toft would be, but would kind of rather get something more "bad ass" of course, heh heh!

Brew: That's a damn good point! Toft = soft. HAH! I see what you mean there. LOL!!

I guess I'll begin searching around this midwest for studios with the specific consoles and see if I can spend some time with them... There's a 34C in town that I checked out, but that may be too big and too much work for me! I would definitely rather get one that works and would need no or very little "work" to get going right away (I don't mind paying for piece of mind, and certainly do not know what I am doing with repairs). I know there's "Blevins" in Nashville and Chris Mara. I am sure I am forgetting some off-hand, but Any other good (retail) sources like that around this area of the country I could go to?

Any more opinions/suggestions/comments welcome!!

brew · Post by **brew** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:08 pm

I've seen the Toft in a classical studio here and it felt to be of good quality. Good knobs at least!

In your budget you could also grow your own with the SSL X-Desk+X-Panda. You'd need to add EQ's.

Or an Allen & Heath GS-R24 is probably the most complete analog package under $10k. There might be boutique stuff (Daking, Cranesong) you could squeeze under 10k, but no way you'd get 24 channels for that price.

Indiana has Sweetwater, and Vintage King is up in MI.

evilaudio · Post by **evilaudio** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:55 pm

Ive seen the Toft too, just never heard it with my specific styles of music, ya know? I really like the idea of that board and may end up getting one. For that kind of money though, I am left wondering "what if" and am going to approach this major purchase very carefully!

I have checked into the latest SSL stuff and that GS-R24, but honestly am not into those products at all. IMO - The Toft looks much more professional than those do. That's just me though, as I am way more into older stuff period. I am sure a lot of people would think I am crazy for that, and nothing against those respective companies and their fine products!

sweetwater carries the Toft line and A&H, but nothing else I'd be interested in for a console (well, they can get RND and SSL - but then I'd need at least $100K!). The only new product I know of that I am interested in is the ATB. Anything else would have to be used. I did not know VK was up in Michigan... that's great to know!!

HeavyHand · Post by **HeavyHand** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:53 pm

all of these songs were recorded on a Toft 32ch. board and liberally eq'd as well. the mix was in the box with some additional processing im sure.

http://bigterrible.bandcamp.com/album/ep

snatchman · Post by **snatchman** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:08 pm

Maybe consider some of the older DDA recording consoles ( not the live ones for routing/patching sake for studio work..?..Good luck

evilaudio · Post by **evilaudio** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:47 am

Heavyhand: Nice! Sounds great! What's your D/A into the desk? How many channels for this mix? Do you do any parallel processing and/or run efx through the board, or is that all done ITB?

Thank you for posting this! Brings the ATB back to a lead contender for me!!

How long have you had it? V2? Had any problems with it?

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:51 pm

I'm not sure what the Toft's run, so I'm not sure if I'm blasting you budget...Check out Neotek. The pres and EQs sound great, good routing, good master section. They even make the smaller, no patchbay "table top" models if you're buying new. Going used you can get a nice series III or Elan for not a ton of money. IF you buy a used Elan or Elite, try to get the II so that the strips they make today are compatible.

HeavyHand · Post by **HeavyHand** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:36 pm

thanks but i was just the drummer on the project. it was recorded and mixed by Bill Moriarty. There was an echoplex running most of the time that was getting printed, and lots of EQing too. no compression on the way in though. although he didn't do much compression at all actually. (what you hear as 2bus compression was done at mastering). the converter was a Lynx. and the mix was in the box after it got in there. hope that helps.

as a side note, i really liked the EQ on it. he was doing some massive shaping with it and it sounded very natural still. i noticed it on guitar especially.

evilaudio · Post by **evilaudio** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:52 pm

Tony: Thank you! Though that is far out of my price range, they look like great consoles (and I've always thought so)!

HH: did you track to tape and then transfer to CPU? So, he was using the Toft as a summing mixer of sorts? Do you know where the mix went next? (back to CPU, or other 2-track capturing device?) This is really helping my confidence in Toft, thank you!!

HeavyHand · Post by **HeavyHand** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:01 pm

unfortunately no tape for this project. just right into the cpu. i dont believe that the Toft was used after tracking but i could be wrong about that. im pretty sure it was all in the box after tracking.

evilaudio · Post by **evilaudio** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:20 pm

Oh, Okay. The project was mixed ITB (I see you plainly stated that originally, I failed to fully understand!). He used the Toft in tracking stage only for this (just to be clear)? Sounds cool, nonetheless!
Whatever console I get, I want to be able to use it both for tracking and mixing...

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Consoles ideal for "heavy" music (rock, punk, meta

Consoles ideal for "heavy" music (rock, punk, meta

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