not sure where to put this but i think everyone should see

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

versuviusx
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 5:14 pm

not sure where to put this but i think everyone should see

Post by versuviusx » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:53 pm

hey so i havent been here in a while. but i found this video.
and i think everyone should see this documentary.
relax i'm not a spammer. this community is about art and music so it fits.
http://www.presspauseplay.com/

User avatar
Electro-Voice 664
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:48 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Post by Electro-Voice 664 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:16 pm

looks cool, I think about this a lot too. Anyone can 'be' whatever they want so easily, and I'm not even sure if that's good or bad.
"Play ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz. On your five grand stereo."

User avatar
Nick Sevilla
speech impediment
Posts: 4939
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:34 pm
Location: Los Angeles California USA
Contact:

Post by Nick Sevilla » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:50 pm

+1
Realizing vibratory excursions from a paper widget.

versuviusx
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 5:14 pm

Post by versuviusx » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:58 pm

yep. if everyone can create magic is magic magic?
is it special?
is it something great?
if everyone creates mediocre magic is the magic worth paying for?
probably not.
the biggest problem is that real musicians have to compete and if there is a sea of shitty music out there who is going to sift through it all just to find that one awesome band.
i like the new lana del rey song blue jeans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-I-Lqy06g

shes new, shes young. no one knows her. back in the day 10-20 years ago this would have made her a lot of money alot of success and she may have had a long career.
but i look at her and i know what i know. she's got someone backing her, spending some money, helping with making the music, the videos, the website, the promotions,etc.
she may have a chance but most likely will just be a flash in the pan. thats it. why because who cares? she could easily be forgotton in a year. because there are so many people making music, she has to be doing this 24hrs a day 356 days a year just so people dont forget her.
not only do you need talent,skillsets, good story telling songs, awesome hooks, great gear,great performance, awesome videos, awesome merch, awesome website, awesome connections, awesome financial backers, she has to promote everyday just so people dont forget her because there are simply too many people making music. its too easy to make music. for some people its a great thing. for others its a huge problem.

User avatar
Brian
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2228
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:00 pm
Location: corner of your eye
Contact:

Post by Brian » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:21 am

A glut of special magic will make magic common.
If you derive your living by creating it in a market glutted by it, you will soon be out of a job or your wages will drop to below subsistence.
That is what just happened to America. Chinese product glut over a protracted period of decades destroyed all domestic markets and drove all domestic manufacturers out of business and all domestic purveyors of those products out of the distribution network.

This is why I don't write content. I used to, but, I had to stop. Not because my stuff sucked, but, because it didn't suck, but, was completely displaced by stuff that had no meaning or point to existing other than distraction or entertainment. I'm not saying mine is "better", just that I didn't create it to satisfy my ego.
Too many do create only to satisfy their ego and their work is not very good.

People have romanticized the "democratization of art" as if it's ONLY making it easier to create and distribute art, but, that isn't what happened.

What happened is that there was created "a core superstition matrix"
(baseless conversation with no findable supporting facts of any kind)
that "artists are doing art for money". This was created by the manufacturers of cheap gear
(who are in it for the money hence their offshore manufacturing facilities).
Then they glutted the music stores and discount stores with near professional level (prosumer) gear" for entry level prices.
This destroyed the market for manufacturers of gear that weren't in it for the money (who only made a few pieces a year and it was beyond acceptable standards of quality to superior levels).
it also destroyed the market for many, even MOST artists that weren't in it for the money but made a living doing quality art.
This process may be making it easier to create, but it also narrows the confines of what that art can be. Non artists won't recognize that as it is an expansion of their capabilities, but artists will recognize the dumbing down of talent and quality, and the possibilities that no longer exist within the existing new framework.

Have you noticed that art has gotten eerily "samey"?

I noticed it a LONG time ago and it's gotten exponentially worse. It also devalues art as a whole.
Just because you create "something" doesn't make it art.
A college degree and a computer does not make you a better or more creative thinker or an artist. It doesn't make what you say worth listening to or what you "create" worth listening to or purchasing to support "an artist".
Only the purchase does.
Devaluing art by economic warfare does not mean that art is not worth making or supporting, it means that it is being systematically targeted for market destruction and that has been accomplished.
Some argue that "It's art, and it should be free".
Then where is the value tallied?
That is a real question.
That also doesn't mean that all creations that no one can or will buy are art wort buying.

When art becomes nothing more than a novelty and there is no market for distribution, who will see it and how will art worth seeing speak to the masses?
It won't.
And that is exactly why this has been done. To pacify you with one of the strongest the weapons of your own enslavement, which was once used to ensure your freedom.
Harumph!

versuviusx
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 5:14 pm

Post by versuviusx » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:52 pm

wow brian.
thats exactly what i was thinking.
you made a lot of great points and i really dont know how this will end.

User avatar
ubertar
ears didn't survive the freeze
Posts: 3753
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:20 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Post by ubertar » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:18 am

Wow. I totally disagree with what I'm reading here, and with a lot of what I saw in the video. If everyone can create magic, it wasn't real magic to begin with, only "magic" in the sense of illusion-- like the cheesy guys who do tricks at kids' parties, or the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.

All this does is raises the bar. It's not good enough to be good. This was coming anyway-- it's a natural consequence of the existence of recording technology. Musicians no longer just compete with the current crop of musicians-- they're competing with everyone who's gone before since the invention of recording equipment. Why should I listen to Joe Schmo, saxophonist, when I can put on some John Coltrane? It's hard to compete with that.

And yet-- the cream will rise to the top. It might take longer than would be convenient for the artist-- maybe past his or her lifetime to where it does them no good financially. Hell, Van Gogh never made on money on his paintings. Great music will be appreciated by real music lovers, the people who are passionate about music listening. They'll get it out to each other in blogs or whatever supplants those in the future, pass it to like-minded friends, and it will grow and have influence. Mediocre music will be forgotten. That's a good thing.

Genres will spring up and break down and meld and become irrelevant, all at the same time in a million different ways. There are no barriers anymore. The music industry slowed all of that way down-- everything can now change at lightning speed. Stuff that was rare, out-of-print, and almost impossible to find is now easy to find. Any kid can get a musical education online that's as good or better than what I experienced digging through the huge record library at my college radio station, back in the day, with little effort. That's a good thing. Better educated listeners leads to a demand for better music.

Lots of good musicians, and really good musicians won't get heard. That's ok. Good isn't good enough anymore. If Hendrix were coming up today, we'd still all know him. He'd cut through the noise because he had something special. There will always be people like that, but they are rare. They've always been rare. Things are fine.
get a hammered sound from guitar or bass! http://www.stringhammer.com
hand-made version to raise money for manufacturing... kind of like kickstarter, but you get a fully functional item now

Album!
https://paulrubenstein.bandcamp.com/album/one-eye-awake

User avatar
Brian
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2228
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:00 pm
Location: corner of your eye
Contact:

Post by Brian » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:05 am

Totally wrong.
This started in 1987. If the cream was going to rise to he top it would have in 20+ years.
What has risen to the top is "Kanye", and people who couldn't sing as "singers", people who can't play in time as "drummers", people who can't carry a pitch on their instruments as musicians.
198,000 releases per year versus a sustainable 7000.
That's what happened.
Not much cream at all, just a lot of garbage, and the glorification of mediocrity.
Harumph!

User avatar
Brian
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2228
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:00 pm
Location: corner of your eye
Contact:

Post by Brian » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:12 am

Please don't read "flaming me" into this post.
ubertar wrote:Wow. I totally disagree with what I'm reading here, and with a lot of what I saw in the video. If everyone can create magic, it wasn't real magic to begin with, only "magic" in the sense of illusion-- like the cheesy guys who do tricks at kids' parties, or the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.

All this does is raises the bar. It's not good enough to be good.
That hasn't happened at all.

And yet-- the cream will rise to the top. It might take longer than would be convenient for the artist-- maybe past his or her lifetime to where it does them no good financially. Hell, Van Gogh never made on money on his paintings. Great music will be appreciated by real music lovers, the people who are passionate about music listening. They'll get it out to each other in blogs or whatever supplants those in the future, pass it to like-minded friends, and it will grow and have influence. Mediocre music will be forgotten. That's a good thing.
Haven't seen that this is a good thing, what this does is make the music more simplistic, more basic, and not well done, just "fudged" with tech.
Better educated listeners leads to a demand for better music.
That's utter BS, there is no evidence of that AT ALL. College educated Narcissists are doing great but their lyrics are shallow and often plagiarized!

Lots of good musicians, and really good musicians won't get heard. That's ok. Good isn't good enough anymore. If Hendrix were coming up today, we'd still all know him. He'd cut through the noise because he had something special. There will always be people like that, but they are rare. They've always been rare. Things are fine.
OK, that's not true either, that's hypothetical, and I see what you're positing, but, no, market glut can absolutely bury talent forever. EVEN HENDRIX.
Harumph!

User avatar
Mudcloth
steve albini likes it
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 6:30 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Post by Mudcloth » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:31 am

I think when we talk about the cream rising to the top, we have to examine what the "top" is. Who's "top"? Billboard's? Rolling Stone's? Your 13 year old niece? Country music radio?
Who cares? Ear of the beholder. I watched the Classic Album dvd on the Band again yesterday. Brilliant group, wouldn't stand a chance today.
Who stood a chance of being what we think of as successful back in 1850?

All of this is sort of a red herring, in a way. All you have to do is make music you like, write songs that you'd like to hear, play music with people you enjoy being around and who you admire. Try to find an audience, which nowadays is so much easier, and at the same time so much harder, both for the same reasons. If you grow resentful for not "making it" or for people like Justin Beiber "making it", you're probably not doing this for the right reasons.

I am now going to finish a song I've been working on. It will not chart. It will not make me lots of money. It may not be heard outside of my musical world of band mates or very small group of fans. It will, however, be the most fun I have all day.
Matt Giles
Austin, Tx


http://www.mattguitargiles.com
http://www.myspace.com/mattguitargiles
http://www.thedrakesband.com/

How much is a stamp? I'll buy the goddamn stamp.

User avatar
Jon Nolan
tinnitus
Posts: 1084
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Post by Jon Nolan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:18 am

So, I downloaded the movie and watched it. It was awesome. Thanks for the heads up. I was psyched to see Seth Godin in the film, as I just recently picked up and read his great book, "Linchpin: Are You Indispensable?" I dig his take on things. While the book is related to all fields of employment, it does relate to what we do, and to the topic of this movie.
Brian wrote:Totally wrong.
This started in 1987. If the cream was going to rise to he top it would have in 20+ years.
What has risen to the top is "Kanye", and people who couldn't sing as "singers", people who can't play in time as "drummers", people who can't carry a pitch on their instruments as musicians.
198,000 releases per year versus a sustainable 7000.
That's what happened.
Not much cream at all, just a lot of garbage, and the glorification of mediocrity.
Brian, I think I might agree with some of the symptoms you see, but I disagree with your "diagnosis."

i'm with ubertar.

I disagree with what you call "the top," and the implication that what hits number one on the charts has anything inherently to do with the best our culture has to offer, or some hogwash like that. Selling a shit ton of anything doesn't mean it's good. Financial success and worldwide notoriety does not equal artistic merit and vice versa. Excellence doesn?t always bludgeon you over the head and announce it?s presence. Hop off the highway and eat at Easy Cheap McMediocrity?s, or go a liiiitle farther into that weird small town and ask the locals where Special Magic?s Burger Joint is. Who sells more? Which is better? Experience both, and then let me ask you if those last two questions are redundant. Hint: they aren?t.

There is no glut of ?special magic,? in any field, never mind music. Nor has there ever been. Nor is likely to be any time soon. There has always been a glut of ?pretty good, but unremarkable,? and so what? Widely distributed and cheap mediocrity is a new concept (I'm looking at you, Walmart), but magic is magic for a reason. Not everybody can do it. Eventually the new white noise will sink into the background of our consciousness (like all those ignored facebook event invites), and then something new and unexpected will catch our eye in a way we never expected. We?ll say, ?whoa! where?d that come from??

I think we're witnessing the death of mediocrity getting a free ride, even if it means that more of it is going to be in our faces for a while. I think it's pretty shortsighted to think that, just because a large part of society (worldwide) is enamored with vast amounts of new, incredibly powerful and quickly evolving technology - previously financially out-of-reach tools, be it a professional grade video camera, still shot camera, inexpensive but decent recording gear, garageband, the ability to write & self-publish a book or whatever - that the current manifestation of that excitement and discovery will be the new status quo forever. Mammoth, world wide cultural shifts are happening. Mammoth! Give the world, like, a couple years to figure this shit out. The lustre will wear off for the hobbyists and poseurs, cuz guess what: being an artist is hard! Real artists will plug away, crawl, undeterred, over the ?dead bodies? of people who give up, or drown in a pool of self pity. They will make mistakes and create shitty work, they will get their asses beat. They will be cast out as fools pushing against the ocean. If they are talented, patient, teachable and hungry, magic will be happen. Poseurs can?t hang in there for ten thousand hours. People whose motives are adulation and greed won't be able to work the system or connections for some huge pay off anymore. Excellence will be held up, and mediocrity will be ignored.

Here?s a blurb from Godin?s book, making an argument for what it will take to get ahead in an age where the rules have changed dramatically, and where one can no longer expect to coast on what worked in the past:

?...understand that your competition has been building a faceless machine exactly like yours. And when customers have the choice between faceless options, they pick the cheapest, fastest, more direct option.......The only way to win is to race to the top. When your organization becomes more human, more remarkable, faster on its feet, and more likely to connect directly with customers, it becomes indispensable.?
Unremarkable has lots of competition now.

A talented tight-from-road-work band with killer songs and experience will smoke any big-fish-in-a-little-pond-group-of-hipsters-who-thought-they-were-on-to-something any day of the week. You don?t see that every day, and when you do, it takes your breath away. It?s hard to be that band (or recordist). It takes time, and hard work and passion. because that?s the how the special magic shit gets made. The digital age will not change that.

In my mind, this is related stuff:
Article: "I Will Not Read Your Fucking Script"
the money shot:"Because here's the thing: not only is it cruel to encourage the hopeless, but you cannot discourage a writer. If someone can talk you out of being a writer, you're not a writer."

Video: Simon Sinek - How great leaders inspire action
the money shot: "people don't buy what you do, but why you do it." eg: apple

User avatar
Jon Nolan
tinnitus
Posts: 1084
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Post by Jon Nolan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:20 am

Mudcloth wrote:I think when we talk about the cream rising to the top, we have to examine what the "top" is. Who's "top"? Billboard's? Rolling Stone's? Your 13 year old niece? Country music radio?
Who cares? Ear of the beholder. I watched the Classic Album dvd on the Band again yesterday. Brilliant group, wouldn't stand a chance today.
Who stood a chance of being what we think of as successful back in 1850?

All of this is sort of a red herring, in a way. All you have to do is make music you like, write songs that you'd like to hear, play music with people you enjoy being around and who you admire. Try to find an audience, which nowadays is so much easier, and at the same time so much harder, both for the same reasons. If you grow resentful for not "making it" or for people like Justin Beiber "making it", you're probably not doing this for the right reasons.

I am now going to finish a song I've been working on. It will not chart. It will not make me lots of money. It may not be heard outside of my musical world of band mates or very small group of fans. It will, however, be the most fun I have all day.
*high five!*

trevord
gettin' sounds
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:20 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Post by trevord » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:03 pm

LOL
*** RANT ON *****
Geez!
Get some perspective - what we are talking about here is a recreational activity - its not brain surgery.
Who cares if its mediocre!!!!
Applying the same twisted insecure logic - should we also say
"Don't play basketball unless you are Michael Jordan"
"Don't write poetry unless you are Walt Whitman"
"Don't sing unless you are Pavarotti"
Don't do anything (recreational) unless you are an expert. Really!?

Where do you guys get the gall to say you are the only people allowed to do some activity, What? are you putting yourselves on the same level as doctors?

LOL

"Well I guess some people will die because that record didn't have all the real talent associated with it"

Get real - music is a recreational activity which was co-opted by a business
there was music BEFORE there was a music business.

In fact the entire music business is premised on the public putting down their own instruments and coming to the "channels" for their music needs.
Used to be the music business meant selling "published" song books for people to play in their own homes - I guess that was "dark age" because of the flood of no talent people playing music for themselves.

Can't you read what you are writing here?

Add me to the list of people who still think its better for every one to join the "cacophony" of everyone playing the music they want.

The other thing to consider is that the majority of popular music now is based on "un-trained" kids using equipment the "wrong" way and creating genres of music which the "experts" could not come up with by themselves.

You are so vocal now about being "trained" and approved - but go in your own studio and try to copy the latest fad sound created by some kid who didn't listen to the rules.

I think individually (as well as an industry) we have to look at ourselves and what we bring to the table - if all you had to add were the things a kid can do on his computer now - then the problem was not with the kid...

*** RANT OFF ***

User avatar
Brian
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2228
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:00 pm
Location: corner of your eye
Contact:

Post by Brian » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:37 pm

Mudcloth wrote:I think when we talk about the cream rising to the top, we have to examine what the "top" is. Who's "top"? Billboard's? Rolling Stone's? Your 13 year old niece? Country music radio?
Who cares? Ear of the beholder. I watched the Classic Album dvd on the Band again yesterday. Brilliant group, wouldn't stand a chance today.
Who stood a chance of being what we think of as successful back in 1850?

All of this is sort of a red herring, in a way. All you have to do is make music you like, write songs that you'd like to hear, play music with people you enjoy being around and who you admire. Try to find an audience, which nowadays is so much easier, and at the same time so much harder, both for the same reasons. If you grow resentful for not "making it" or for people like Justin Beiber "making it", you're probably not doing this for the right reasons.

I am now going to finish a song I've been working on. It will not chart. It will not make me lots of money. It may not be heard outside of my musical world of band mates or very small group of fans. It will, however, be the most fun I have all day.
Well put. That really says it. Good work.
Harumph!

User avatar
RickvH
alignin' 24-trk
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: North Shore, BC

Post by RickvH » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:46 pm

I would rather have people create their own (possibly amateurish) music than merely be mindless consumers of commercially produced product. They will likely become better informed music consumers in the process.

In many times and places, art was something people just did. Not for monetary gain or fame, but as a form of self-expression or even just to kill time. Perhaps we are returning to a situation like that again. I can't help but think it's a good thing for more people to have the means to express themselves creatively.

The fact that fewer people had access to the means to create and distribute music in the past did not necessarily result in better music but certainly limited listening options.

I suppose there is a glut now, but we also have powerful tools at our disposal to help us find stuff we might like.
"It's just a prototype...unless it works."
Recent Projects

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests