Clean, upfront hi-hat - how?

[Seamonster]

This has become a nice thread.

Several have recommended larger hats. That would seem counterintuitive to me. Larger equals more mass, equals lower frequency ? which means more low-end to roll off. Also, wouldn't larger typically mean louder? Someone please 'splain me the rationale for larger. (Actresses and bishops need not reply.)

K Hill

[Nick Sevilla]

Washy maybe is a bad word.

Swooshy is good and is not what I mean.

What I am talking about is the hat making more of a 'cuurrrrrrrrr' sound as opposed to a 'tssssssss' sound.

Aaaaaaaaand, here I am today, many moons later.

Limpyloo, you do know this is a 9 month old thread?

As to you not liking clean up front hihat, to each their own...
Michael Jackson's Billy Jean is a good example of clean up front hihat.

[Gregg Juke]

Hi Seamonster,

Larger does not necessarily mean thicker/heavier or louder. It's a complicated mixture of metals used, hi-hat size and thickness, sticks used, technique and where on the hats the majority of the playing occurs. All that on the playing side, plus miking with an appropriate choice from an appropriate distance (or echewing the hi-hat mike altogether). So, the short answer is "yes, larger hats might help," depending on what the artist/engineer/producer/arranger wants, and what the drummer in question is capable of playing...

GJ

[Brett Siler]

Lately in mixing I've been into dark overheads and a bright close mic hi hat. Whether that is with the mics themselves or with EQ. The hi hat will still be turned down pretty low compared to the overheads, but the brightness of it close miced hi hat will be easier to place and hear in your stereo field. Also carving out lowend on the overheads and close mic hihat seems to help not get in the way of other instruments.

[Seamonster]

Hi Gregg (and others),

If I?m hearing you right, you could just as well say that smaller hats might help too, right? That the advice here in this thread boils down to: try out different hats.

Let?s see if I know something about music physics. Even if a large hat is thinner than a smaller one, it will still have lower fundamental frequencies if its absolute mass is greater. (And I think cymbals' diameters vary more than do thicknesses, though I could be wrong about that.) Yes, frequencies plural: cymbals are essentially bells, with several different fundamentals associated with the overall diameter, the diameter at the shoulder or cup, etc. These fundamentals are enharmonic; cymbals, like other resonant membranes (e.g., drum heads), have many non-rational modes of resonance. But their tones are still perceptible as pitches, roughly. Those pitches correspond to the ?currrrr? and ?tsssss? we?re talking about, right? The heavier the cymbal, the lower the pitch(es), so the more currrr and the less tsssss. Given that, I?m still curious why one would look to a larger cymbal if one wants less currrrr. What am I missing?

K Hill

[blungo2]

I thought the thinner a cymbal is the lower it's fundamental is? At least it seems like that when i listen to different cymbals.

[Gregg Juke]

I guess all I can say is "Try out different hi-hats and find out for yourself."
Not snarkily, just, for real, try them (like go into the cymbal room at GC and bang away).

Yes, all things being equal, your physics are probably correct; but, all things are never equal (smiley). A LOT of "currr" these days comes from the way most drummers are wailing on the sides of the cymbals with the shoulder of the stick rather than the bead near the center. With that in mind, many folks (including myself), would recommend "darker" hats (often larger, and definitely whichever relates more to "K" than "A" type cymbals, regardless of whether you're a Zildjian, Sabian, Paiste, or other fan). While the "darker" cymbals would tend to sound "lower," and thus one would assume more "currr-y," they are actually more subdude and have less chinky high-end over-tones, which in my opinion when combined with the giant-baseball-bat-as-drumstick/shoulder-of-stick-on-open-hats approach, makes for much more "Currrr" than "tsss." You could also try smaller hats, you could also try holes around the cup of the bottom cymbal, you could also try a flat bottom hi-hat, etc., etc., etc. But it is one suggestion that I think works well-- dang the physics (I've played drums for 30 years). I know it seems counter-intuitive, but...

GJ

[Seamonster]

So a lot of it comes down to the old truth: it?s the player.

I hadn?t heard of holes around the cup of the bottom cymbal. I?m thinking of different, contradictory things that might achieve. One would be to direct some air pressure (created when the cymbals come together) away from the cymbals? edge. Not sure what difference in sound that might create.

My studio?s in-house drum kit has large, too-loud rock hats, so I recently snapped up some small, vintage ?cocktail? hats to try out. But my whole kit is in storage at the moment (where it ended up during studio remodel), so I haven?t yet had a chance to compare the two. When I next need to drag out the kit, I?ll be doing some serious experimenting!

[mindsound]

First, you have to work the hihat and the drummer as well at the recording stage. Change your hihat, tame it with gel, change drummer stick....
As for the drummer, I realized most of the times that drummer play too hard their hihat....I imagine it comes from a live habit. If possible (depending on your drummer) ask for a better balance between the hihat and the rest in the performance. It always come form a great source....and the player is a big part of the source.

Finally, try using ribbons as overhead and take care that they are not pointing directly at the hihat.

good luck.