Clean, upfront hi-hat - how?

[gavintheaudioengineer]

I just can't do it.

Multi miced drums, usually recorderman or glyn johns as OH, and although the snare kick and toms are locked and the other tops are balanced, the hi hat always sounds washy. There's always too much of it bleeding through the other mics, especially the snare despite my angles.

I'm going to try centering the hat between the OH, but am worried about what that would do to the rest of the kit. Seems a shame when the rest of the kit sounds great with glyn johns/recorderman- and I know you guys are using these methods- so what am I doing wrong?

It's killing me

Tape Op, can you help?

[losthighway]

Find some dark hats. Set the hi hat clutch so it's not open very wide. Have the drummer try playing the hi hat closed more often. Feed some of the overheads into the drummer's headphones so they can hear how loud it is.

As a drummer I've been practicing recording with a really gentle right hand on the hats and a very firm left hand on the snare. It has made a big difference and has made my room mics more usable. It takes a lot to get a snare to reach its full tonal/volume potential, it takes very, very little to make most cymbals do the same.

XY overhead style with the right mics can mellow the hi hats a little too.

[vxboogie]

I just can't do it.

Multi miced drums, usually recorderman or glyn johns as OH, and although the snare kick and toms are locked and the other tops are balanced, the hi hat always sounds washy. There's always too much of it bleeding through the other mics, especially the snare despite my angles.

Maybe its not the way its miced, but the player or the HH themselves. Are you talking about different kits and players or always the same one?

I know that getting drummers to play the cymbals and HH lighter and use better sounding and larger HHs made a big difference in some of my drum recordings, stuff that I definitely couldn't "fix in the mix".

[gavintheaudioengineer]

Thanks man, maybe a different approach to the OH is what's needed.

My problem is with those really coarse mid-range harmonics that come from the hats- I can thin out the close mic, but am reluctant to do so on the OH...

[gavintheaudioengineer]

Different players usually, but mostly the same kit.

We have some different hats that I can try, but I recollect that they've aways sounded pretty coarse nomatter what...

[Gregg Juke]

Could be mike choice. More likely microphone placement (make sure it's not pointed directly at the opening, or too much towards the bell, or too close period (this can make things washy, or with different players, they can even wind-up hitting the mike, when the last guy on the last session was fine!)...

Also, the suggestion for something darker (K's, probably) is a good one. Larger hats rather than smaller 13" would probably be better.

Someone did some kind of multi-mike acoustic tests. The hi-hat is supposedly the loudest part of the drum set! You may want to pull that mike out, if you are individually miking. Maybe that will make your OH's sound more balanced. Also, as others have mentioned, it is the player, usually, that is the most important factor. Some guys just unnecessarily wail on hi-hats open 4-inches apart. Others know how to finesse them like Gadd.

There was a video that Steve Smith did quite a few years ago. He was first and foremost a jazz drummer before joining Journey. He's a great, tasteful drummer that can play rock or any other style with ease. But he was noticing on recording sessions that engineers were always pulling down (or out) his hi-hat mike. He then decided to start "self-mixing" his kit, playing the hat quite a bit more quitely. He noticed his sound was more balanced and engineers weren't burying his hats so much. That's one of the greatest out there. If Joe Schmoe comes in to track, he may not understand that concept, and then you have to "help" him or her...

GJ

[the finger genius]

+1 on bigger hats. I never understood the 13" craze. I use 15", or occasionally 2 16" crashes (1 heavy, 1 medium).

[gavintheaudioengineer]

So I'm guessing that the weight of the bigger hats work well for those drummers that don't have as much control over their playing?

Now what about close micing techniques- I've always used a SDC for that crispness- is anyone using anything different? Or some unusual positions?

[Nick Sevilla]

Try a darker microphone for the snare mic.

Also, hitting the hihat less hard might be a good idea.

One question : "Washy" means what to you? Lost of open hi hat action getting all over the place? Try using closed hi hat.

I've once gone to the extreme of removing cymbals and hi hats from a kit, to illustrate to the drummer that these pieces of the kit do not need to be there at all, and when there, do not need to be bashed.

The drummer did a few takes with no cymbals at all, which helped determine where in the song there SHOULD be cymbals. They were needed in a lot less places than originally played. Also, once I put the hi hats back on, suddenly the drummer said they were too loud.

Your results will vary, according to the size of the drummers' ego.

This"trick" of teaching a drummer to record as opposed to live playing, was taught to me by Airto Moreira. He would sometimes set up his kit with no cymbals, and use a percussion station instead for color. Very cool cat.

Cheers

[the finger genius]

So I'm guessing that the weight of the bigger hats work well for those drummers that don't have as much control over their playing?

Now what about close micing techniques- I've always used a SDC for that crispness- is anyone using anything different? Or some unusual positions?

Not sure how much help I can be here, I rarely close mic hi hat, especially if it's already too loud in the OHs.

[fossiltooth]

I like to carve out a ton of low end. Pretty much anything lower than 300hz by default. Maybe even more than that, depending.

I generally like to pan hi-hat close mics. Even if you still have plenty of hat in the center of the image from your overheads or close mics, a panned close mic on the hat can help make it sound more articulate and discrete.

Also: Remember that moving a hat-mic just a few inches can dramatically affect the tone. More toward the rim, more toward the bell - That can be even more important than what mic you're using. For mics, I pretty much use anything that's left over and doesn't have a big midrange peak that can be annoying on hats. I'd avoid things like SM57s, but that's about it.

If I'm trying to make individual elements of the kit clear and discrete with lots of close mics, I'll generally go for a spaced pair. Just as often, I'll record drums with a mono overhead or XY with minimal close mics - and nothing on the hat. All depends on what you're going for.

[gavintheaudioengineer]

Washy maybe is a bad word.

Swooshy is good and is not what I mean.

What I am talking about is the hat making more of a 'cuurrrrrrrrr' sound as opposed to a 'tssssssss' sound.

[fossiltooth]

Washy maybe is a bad word.

Swooshy is good and is not what I mean.

What I am talking about is the hat making more of a 'cuurrrrrrrrr' sound as opposed to a 'tssssssss' sound.

That's probably more about close mic placement and/or the sound of the hats themselves (material, weight, force, how far open or tightly closed they are). Phasing and comb-filtering effects from other mics can also be a significant factor.

[gavintheaudioengineer]

Basically my panic is that I'm tracking for a project to be worked on later by another mixer/producer, something I've never had to do before. He will be with us at the tracking session making judgement calls on the sound.

I guess I'm wanting to make sure that ALL elements of the kit are nice and articulate, to give him a good starting point with the mix.

In short, I just want to make sure I track it well! I recognize that in my journey into better drum sounds, my hi hats are the weakest link.

[Gregg Juke]

+1 to Justin's comments; as I mentioned, we've had sessions where mike placement was fine with one drummer, and not another. Also, didn't think about panning, but as far as my "norm," I definitely pan the kit drummer's perspective most of the time. This puts the snare and the hi-hat just a bit off to the left. Try the opposite for stage perspective, and you might get a more focused sound.

As to this:

>>>>I've once gone to the extreme of removing cymbals and hi hats from a kit, to illustrate to the drummer that these pieces of the kit do not need to be there at all, and when there, do not need to be bashed. The drummer did a few takes with no cymbals at all, which helped determine where in the song there SHOULD be cymbals.<<<<

I know what you mean; I'm hip. I've often randomly clipped the strings of guitarists and bass players that were too loud or too busy, or both. This helps them to get the idea that they'd better play at a reasonable volume, and with a modicum of notes, or they might not wind-up with ANY strings at all. I've also kicked-in some speakers on amp cabinets, just to get the idea across that some songs don't need excessive volume, or even any electric string activity AT ALL. Once we agree (by me dictating to the players verbatim, with their explicit, implicit, and/or tacit acceptance) where amplified guitar or bass MAY be appropriate, then I might allow them to track something with the low E string, for instance, on a first pass... they are usually paying for the session, after all.

I learned this trick from Kim Fowley. He's quite a guy (from what I hear).



GJ