Live Recording
Live Recording
Looking for advice -- I'll be recording a live music series in an art gallery. Small room, maybe 15' wide by maybe 60' deep, not sure. Ceilings are 10' ish. The acts will range from free jazz to indie folk to contemporary classical.
This is a new series, and may or may not involve sound reinforcement -- remains to be seen. If there is sound reinforcement it will be small, crappy PA's brought by the artists, so I can't just 'take a split off the FOH board...'
I'm thinking of using a close spaced pair and a more distant mid-side pair and see how that turns out. Mic pres will probably be either API's or (more likely) Focusrite ISA428's.
My only matched pair of mics is AT450's. I have Oktava 012's also, with card and omni capsules, but the mics were modded by different people at different times, one by Michael Joly and one by the previous owner, who did the "Scott Dorsey" mod (I used to hang around rec.audio.pro and remember when Scott posted that mod...) They both sound good but I don't consider them a pair.
The 'mid' mic is usually a Beyer m160, the 'side' could be either a Nady ribbon or CAD condenser in Fig-8.
OK. Basically, my question is who else has done a gig like this, what did you learn by trial and error, and what might I want to do/not do to make this successful? It's live music and there's no second chance to capture the performance.
This is a new series, and may or may not involve sound reinforcement -- remains to be seen. If there is sound reinforcement it will be small, crappy PA's brought by the artists, so I can't just 'take a split off the FOH board...'
I'm thinking of using a close spaced pair and a more distant mid-side pair and see how that turns out. Mic pres will probably be either API's or (more likely) Focusrite ISA428's.
My only matched pair of mics is AT450's. I have Oktava 012's also, with card and omni capsules, but the mics were modded by different people at different times, one by Michael Joly and one by the previous owner, who did the "Scott Dorsey" mod (I used to hang around rec.audio.pro and remember when Scott posted that mod...) They both sound good but I don't consider them a pair.
The 'mid' mic is usually a Beyer m160, the 'side' could be either a Nady ribbon or CAD condenser in Fig-8.
OK. Basically, my question is who else has done a gig like this, what did you learn by trial and error, and what might I want to do/not do to make this successful? It's live music and there's no second chance to capture the performance.
- Nick Sevilla
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- ass engineer
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How many inputs do you have available?
What are you using to record (beyond the mic's & pre's)?
What are the expectations of the clients?
What are you using to record (beyond the mic's & pre's)?
What are the expectations of the clients?
https://www.facebook.com/AndersonSoundRecordingI heard they inserted a Jimmy Hendrix into the chain somewhere before the preamp.
...Anybody know what that preamp was, 'cause I'd also love to get that sound.
- Mike Tate
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Mind what Nick said about levels. Leave what you might think are ridiculous amounts of headroom going in. I'd not have a peak above -12dBFS, averages might run as low as -20dBFS or even lower. The noise floor of any modern digital system will be irrelevant in context. A signal once clipped is never again pleasant.
If "indie folk" (whatever that is <g>) is billed there will be sound reinforcement and it will be shitty. Nothing you can do about that. Your idea to mic the room as best you can is a good one, but one that will suffer from factors over which you have no control.
While you can't just take a PA feed, try to learn, for each show, what you can take, and certainly for any of them that have a PA you can pull the house mix. It will most often be crappy, but you never know, and sometimes it will save your ass.
Perhaps in some cases you can pull individual channels via direct outputs from the console or via the inserts, if there is a real console.
In order to determine what you'll be able to do for each of these shows you will need to invest a silly amount of time advancing the gig, and some of the folks with whom you attempt to communicate will not be good at that. Do the best you can, and understand that at the barroom level, bullshit runs deep. Be prepared to deal with it without getting distracted.
The room sounds like a recordist's nightmare. Mic placement is your only weapon. No sensible way to talk about that, as it will probably vary from show to show.
Good luck. I mean that in a very encouraging way. Situations like the one you describe present serious challenges, AKA opportunities, and a range of options for self-education. When it's all said and done you will come away a better audio recordist, and your people skills will be honed to a whole new level. That stuff will be worth far more than the money you get paid for the work.
If "indie folk" (whatever that is <g>) is billed there will be sound reinforcement and it will be shitty. Nothing you can do about that. Your idea to mic the room as best you can is a good one, but one that will suffer from factors over which you have no control.
While you can't just take a PA feed, try to learn, for each show, what you can take, and certainly for any of them that have a PA you can pull the house mix. It will most often be crappy, but you never know, and sometimes it will save your ass.
Perhaps in some cases you can pull individual channels via direct outputs from the console or via the inserts, if there is a real console.
In order to determine what you'll be able to do for each of these shows you will need to invest a silly amount of time advancing the gig, and some of the folks with whom you attempt to communicate will not be good at that. Do the best you can, and understand that at the barroom level, bullshit runs deep. Be prepared to deal with it without getting distracted.
The room sounds like a recordist's nightmare. Mic placement is your only weapon. No sensible way to talk about that, as it will probably vary from show to show.
Good luck. I mean that in a very encouraging way. Situations like the one you describe present serious challenges, AKA opportunities, and a range of options for self-education. When it's all said and done you will come away a better audio recordist, and your people skills will be honed to a whole new level. That stuff will be worth far more than the money you get paid for the work.
- joelpatterson
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Close-miking as opposed to distant miking. Wise man once said: you will capture the "room" wherever you place the mics-- it's not like you can shut it out. On the other hand, the clarity and detail of what the players are creating: you get much farther than about ten feet out, this can turn murky and then you've REALLY got a challenge, trying to bring it back.
And in the category of "quickest, dirtiest set-up requiring absolutely no prep aside from walking in the door a few minutes before they start to play," you might audition this soundtrack: all the audio is from a Sony PCM-D50 propped about four feet away from the harmonica player:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCM5YKV0jQI
And in the category of "quickest, dirtiest set-up requiring absolutely no prep aside from walking in the door a few minutes before they start to play," you might audition this soundtrack: all the audio is from a Sony PCM-D50 propped about four feet away from the harmonica player:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCM5YKV0jQI
- Gregg Juke
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Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned multiple/redundant back-up.
I've done a bit of this stuff, some with well-documented hilariously awful results early on. But I did learn a bit working for a friend that records all of the local school and other choral, band, and orchestra concerts. Stereo pair is ok, watch levels as mentioned, but most importantly, have at least one, if not two, back-up units going (perhaps the main unit running hotter level than the back-up[s]).
Assuming you are taking this back to the studio for post-production, you may need the choices. Most importantly, you don't want to miss any of the program material due to equipment failure. Seriously, a cassette back-up to "fix in the mix" would be better than a blank space on the CD.
GJ
I've done a bit of this stuff, some with well-documented hilariously awful results early on. But I did learn a bit working for a friend that records all of the local school and other choral, band, and orchestra concerts. Stereo pair is ok, watch levels as mentioned, but most importantly, have at least one, if not two, back-up units going (perhaps the main unit running hotter level than the back-up[s]).
Assuming you are taking this back to the studio for post-production, you may need the choices. Most importantly, you don't want to miss any of the program material due to equipment failure. Seriously, a cassette back-up to "fix in the mix" would be better than a blank space on the CD.
GJ
I need to go visit the gallery soon. Hardwood floors, I think, plaster walls, art. Lots of flat reflective surfaces. The room probably does not sound all that good.
I'm bringing a laptop and an interface (TC Konnekt, does up to 12 inputs). I could spot mic everything, but I don't think there's going to be much setup time.
Expectations are that the music will be documented and released to a podcast which might build interest in the series.
I appreciate the advice. The first group is jazz, probably drums/bass/elect. gtr/sax. They won't use sound reinforcement, and they play with lots of dynamics, so recording at a very low average level is a good idea.
After that I don't know the performers, and I'll need to be in touch with them.
Edited to add: I've got a CD recorder hanging around here that was in someone's basement and they gave it to me. I could bring that as a redundant backup device. There would be a gap where I change discs since these shows are going to be 1.5-2 hrs each.
I'm bringing a laptop and an interface (TC Konnekt, does up to 12 inputs). I could spot mic everything, but I don't think there's going to be much setup time.
Expectations are that the music will be documented and released to a podcast which might build interest in the series.
I appreciate the advice. The first group is jazz, probably drums/bass/elect. gtr/sax. They won't use sound reinforcement, and they play with lots of dynamics, so recording at a very low average level is a good idea.
After that I don't know the performers, and I'll need to be in touch with them.
Edited to add: I've got a CD recorder hanging around here that was in someone's basement and they gave it to me. I could bring that as a redundant backup device. There would be a gap where I change discs since these shows are going to be 1.5-2 hrs each.
- digitaldrummer
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- alignin' 24-trk
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You're welcome, Eric. rec.audio.pro is still hanging in there, though activity is much less than once upon a time. Still, good info can be had there and a few folks, like Mike Rivers and Scott Dorsey, who predate my own arrival there, still provide a lot of helpful info. They were the near-instant responders so long ago when I made my first query there about the sync channel outputs of my dear departed A80-VUT.
Harvey, with his son Alex, has a nifty studio near Denton TX.
http://itrstudio.com/
He used to co-host a forum at ProSound Web, but the site masters there led the place into a massive revision, one that required all subscribers to resubscribe, and lots of people bailed. I just looked to see if Harvey was still there, and judging by the dates of the most recent messages, it's now a cyber ghost town.
Indian Trail Studio also has a Facebook page.
I know Harvey has been active in some interesting design work, including studio monitors, in the recent past.
http://itrstudio.com/index.php/staff/harvey-gerst
Good luck with your recording. I love live work, though these days I'm committed to being behind the guitar and in front of the mic, instead of the other way around.
Harvey, with his son Alex, has a nifty studio near Denton TX.
http://itrstudio.com/
He used to co-host a forum at ProSound Web, but the site masters there led the place into a massive revision, one that required all subscribers to resubscribe, and lots of people bailed. I just looked to see if Harvey was still there, and judging by the dates of the most recent messages, it's now a cyber ghost town.
Indian Trail Studio also has a Facebook page.
I know Harvey has been active in some interesting design work, including studio monitors, in the recent past.
http://itrstudio.com/index.php/staff/harvey-gerst
Good luck with your recording. I love live work, though these days I'm committed to being behind the guitar and in front of the mic, instead of the other way around.
Warning: drunken ramble ahead.
Yep, I know about ITR and Harvey's overall trajectory and Alex's work vaguely. I had Mike Rivers over to my place to show me how to align a 2-head Fostex tape machine (exercise in frustration FWIW). Never met Scott Dorsey, though I'll genuflect if I ever do... Ty Ford lives in my town, and is a very good guy I'm always glad to run across.
Folks, if Hank Alrich answers a question you've posted, pay attention.
And Harvey did some design work for Acoustic back in the day. Any time I run across a vintage Acoustic bass cabinet or PA cabinet I give it a long look -- that stuff sounded waaaaaay above average back in the day (80's), clearly well-designed.
Yep, I know about ITR and Harvey's overall trajectory and Alex's work vaguely. I had Mike Rivers over to my place to show me how to align a 2-head Fostex tape machine (exercise in frustration FWIW). Never met Scott Dorsey, though I'll genuflect if I ever do... Ty Ford lives in my town, and is a very good guy I'm always glad to run across.
Folks, if Hank Alrich answers a question you've posted, pay attention.
And Harvey did some design work for Acoustic back in the day. Any time I run across a vintage Acoustic bass cabinet or PA cabinet I give it a long look -- that stuff sounded waaaaaay above average back in the day (80's), clearly well-designed.
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Multiple pairs into multiple channels work well. If you've got the inputs, track as many as you can.
I've had good results with an ORTF pair, I've even had a single Rode NT1 mono as a backup that turned out great. Spaced omni (3') seems to work well too.
If there's one channel/mic I'd try to get the split, it's the lead vocals. That's the one element that sounds like crap in a museum reverb chamber.
BTW: where in Baltimore is this series? My entire family (siblings, mom) moved out to Baltimore this year, and I may be visiting more regularly. My sister teaches at Loyola.
I've had good results with an ORTF pair, I've even had a single Rode NT1 mono as a backup that turned out great. Spaced omni (3') seems to work well too.
If there's one channel/mic I'd try to get the split, it's the lead vocals. That's the one element that sounds like crap in a museum reverb chamber.
BTW: where in Baltimore is this series? My entire family (siblings, mom) moved out to Baltimore this year, and I may be visiting more regularly. My sister teaches at Loyola.
The series is at Antreasian Gallery, 36th St. Hampden. This Sunday is the trial run, with free-ish jazz. Young guys, good players, pretty cerebral. Next week is a really good singer/songwriter but I won't be there -- got a gig elsewhere. After that I know less about the talent.
No vocals this week, I don't think. No PA system, but these guys can do dynamics pretty well. Space pair will be cardiods, I think, maybe I can work the null to improve the sound.
Without having heard results, I'm picturing the space pair 6' up, looking downward at the players, M/S pair chest-high front and center, pretty close... If that sparks any thoughts, let me know, but I know it doesn't matter til I hear it.
No vocals this week, I don't think. No PA system, but these guys can do dynamics pretty well. Space pair will be cardiods, I think, maybe I can work the null to improve the sound.
Without having heard results, I'm picturing the space pair 6' up, looking downward at the players, M/S pair chest-high front and center, pretty close... If that sparks any thoughts, let me know, but I know it doesn't matter til I hear it.
- joelpatterson
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:ar15:standup wrote:... If that sparks any thoughts...
You're reminding me-- the times I've been boxed into capturing essentially what the players are hearing, themselves, onstage, like mics crowding in on them and getting a mix of their live sound and what they're hearing in the monitors....
.... it's always seemed to work well, there's an 'insidery, you-are-there' feel.
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