Neil Young sez: "Piracy is the new radio."

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xrt99
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Re: Neil Young sez: "Piracy is the new radio."

Post by xrt99 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:37 am

And one more thing, I think Neil Young's comment on piracy is more about the mainstream method of music consumption rather than any type of broad statement on the industry in general. He was articulating FM radio (over-compressed, main method of consumption for years) compared to today's mp3 (over-compressed file, main method of consumption for at least a decade).

The optimal solution is developing an access based service that only provides high-quality audio for a great price. I think we're a few years away from being able to make that happen across the board, but I do believe it is the future.
'the difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones' - john maynard keynes

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Re: Neil Young sez: "Piracy is the new radio."

Post by Bob Olhsson » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:48 pm

xrt99 wrote:...The way to win us (using this term loosely) back is to provide a service that is WORTH it...
Exactly!

Say what you will, the bar for what's worth buying has absolutely been raised. The same old stuff for less money is not a solution because for all the glamor, there really never was all that much money there in the first place.

People really need to be thinking way outside the box for solutions. It requires real pioneering creativity and not followers or posers.
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Post by Knights Who Say Neve » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:09 pm

Bob Olhsson wrote:
Nobody would have bought an i-pod if they needed to then buy all of the music to listen to with it.
Actually I bought an ipod so I wouldn't have to have a huge box of CDs in the car anymore. I bought all those CDs - used. I guess I'm a criminal too?
"What you're saying is, unlike all the other writers, if it was really new, you'd know it was new when you heard it, and you'd love it. <b>That's a hell of an assumption</b>". -B. Marsalis

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Post by chris harris » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:20 pm

Buying used CDs is not illegal.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:26 pm

I bought an iPod knowing full well that I'd spend a few days digitizing all of the music that I had already purchased. But I was an early adopter and the "music is free" paradigm didn't exist yet. I came up valuing music. And, I still consider $10/album to be a fantastic value. But, I agree that younger people don't. And I agree that they're looking for more for their $10 than the mp3s they can illegally download for free.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:34 pm

Would you be more likely to buy records from bands if they came with a free t-shirt or some other "value added" extras? What would you like to receive for your music dollars?

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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:52 pm

chris harris wrote:Buying used CDs is not illegal.
But ripping them to MP3 for your iPod might be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping#Legality
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Post by chris harris » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:01 am

Minority view... No legal precident... Etc., etc....

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Post by Int'l Feel » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:13 am

chris harris wrote:Would you be more likely to buy records from bands if they came with a free t-shirt or some other "value added" extras? What would you like to receive for your music dollars?
I'm more inclined to buy the record (LP) if it comes with the download. That way I get the physical product for optimal listening and then I can take the music with me on the train, road trips, etc. Yeah, yeah, people used to have to wait to get home to listen to the music, but sometimes I just gotta hear that track now!

One nice little surprise I got with Mike Viola's "Hang on Mike" was the full digital download + about another album's worth of bonus tracks, demos, outtakes, etc. Personally, I love to hear how songs take shape.
chris harris wrote:And, I still consider $10/album to be a fantastic value. But, I agree that younger people don't. And I agree that they're looking for more for their $10 than the mp3s they can illegally download for free.
I agree. $10 is great, but when/where I was growing up and first getting into the music listening experience, all we had was Virgin, Best Buy, and Wal-Mart (for all those edited Dr. Dre records...) and CDs were closer to $20. So when Napster hit, the prices either stayed that way or went up.

Add to that the argument that Top 40 music was starting to sound a little same-y? Albums were getting released but the singles (arguably) were the only reason people bought the disc, the rest of it being filler. This is just my perspective growing up through all of this.

Back to Spotify: I'm seeing a lot more friends sign up for the free version and the few that finally came over to premium are saying it's totally worth it.

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Post by Mudcloth » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:45 am

Here's an interesting financial perspective: It would cost $30,000 to legally fill my iPod with $.99 downloads.

It's hard to imagine someone wanting to hear a song, or wanting to "buy" a song, and not having the money to do so and then saying "I guess I just can't listen to that song on my iPod or computer. I guess I'll go over to my friends house and listen to it there."

Again, music is everywhere, all the time. It's perceived as free most of the time to most people.
We're talking about music as being one of the few things in the universe that is a commodity, but that can be replicated, ad infinitum.

Here are some of the rules, legally and/ or ethically:
1. You may not rip a cd onto your computer or iPod that you didn't purchase, unless it was given to you as an un-opened gift.
2. You may not download a song off the internet that you haven't paid for, unless you get permission from the person who owns the rights of said song.
3. You may listen to music on your computer if you sign up for a service such as Spotify.
4. You may listen to a song off a cd you didn't purchase as many times as you like, if you are borrowing that cd or iPod from a friend. You just can't copy that song into your computer.
5. If a used cd is given to you as a gift, you may or may not be allowed to rip those songs onto your computer or iPod. Grey area.
6. If a used cd is purchased from a retail store, you may rip it into your computer or iPod. (Interesting, that this seems to be okay just because there is a middle man involved.)
7. You may buy a used vinyl LP, digitally convert it into a wav file, convert it again into an mp3, store that mp3 in your iPod or computer. You may or may not be allowed to then share that mp3 with someone, even though that mp3 started as a used vinyl record.
8. You may rent a song for one listen off of a jukebox. The other people around you get to listen to that song for free.
9. You may not copy an mp3 and email it to your friends. If you do and they receive it, they may not open it and listen to it. They may not add it to their iTunes. Stolen goods.
10. You may listen to songs off the radio or satellite station.
11. You may not tape record or digitally record off the radio or satellite station, although most of us did this back in the day. The music industry provided us a way to do this when they started selling the hardware to make this possible. I have a 78 player that has a built in wire recorder so you can copy your 78's to a wire reel. Still, it's a no no to record off the radio.

Well, that takes care of a lot of it. Now if everybody just followed these rules we'd be okay, right? Basically, it's sometimes okay to rip CDs if you "own" the CD. You could always buy a CD from a friend for a penny and then rip it to your heart's content. As long as it was purchased, it's owned. Again, your friend could give you the CD. That's also ownership. You just can't borrow a CD to rip and then give the CD back.

Song ownership, that's what it's all about. The artist, of course, only gets money the first time it's sold, just like furniture. Once it's used and re-sold, tough turkey. So many people can "own" a CD, and therefore the songs contained on that CD.

Here's and interesting thought. What if I buy a CD, thus owning the contents, and I re-sell the mp3's that I rip off of it? I mean, it's a used CD at that point and the contents of that CD can be sold and re-sold as many times as can be imagined. If I sell the contents one mp3 at a time, then ownership is achieved by the purchaser.

No, forget it. That wouldn't work. It's the piece of plastic that is being bought the first time. Only the piece of plastic can be re-sold as many times as imagined. If 100 people bought the same used CD and ripped it into their computers, everything is hunky dory. As long as the piece of plastic is the only thing being bought and re-sold. The 100 copies of that CD that are now in all those computers are legally clear. Still, why is it okay to do that with plastic CDs and not mp3 files? Guess we got to draw a line somewhere.
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Post by xrt99 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:37 am

chris harris wrote:Would you be more likely to buy records from bands if they came with a free t-shirt or some other "value added" extras? What would you like to receive for your music dollars?
If I'm ordering directly from a band...sure, a t-shirt, great art (maybe an vinyl-sized insert book that ships when I order the album), stickers, choice of one 1 merch item? But inevitably by selling a product that can be 'owned' and copied relentlessly for free, you will always compete with piracy.

The most convenient access-based service has the capability to slay piracy in a capitalist battle because it removes a lot of the steps required to pirate an album. Think about it - a service that means no more having to download, drag to your iPod (potentially delete some songs to make room), unplug it and listen. Sign me up.

Whatever company figures out the way to do this best - combining convenience with enough cool new features to potentially change the listening experience - wins out.
'the difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones' - john maynard keynes

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Post by Knights Who Say Neve » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:48 pm

chris harris wrote:Buying used CDs is not illegal.
At one point, IIRC, the industry was trying to make selling used CDs illegal. Sueing the Warehouse chain, I think. I'm having trouble googling that though so I could be wrong.

More recently the labels mooted the idea of pushing for federal law to mandate royalities on second-hand sales of CD's. http://legacy.utsandiego.com/news/busin ... edcds.html

Point being, the industry has no problem criminalizing anyone who threatens their revenue stream. Remember Valenti's comments about the VCR? The labels have no credibility on this issue, after their many, many attempts to circumvent the first sale doctrine and generally act as monopolies while simultaneously exploiting the artists whose interests they were supposedly protecting through legislation.
"What you're saying is, unlike all the other writers, if it was really new, you'd know it was new when you heard it, and you'd love it. <b>That's a hell of an assumption</b>". -B. Marsalis

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Post by Bob Olhsson » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:56 pm

Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
chris harris wrote:Buying used CDs is not illegal.
At one point, IIRC, the industry was trying to make selling used CDs illegal. Sueing the Warehouse chain, I think. I'm having trouble googling that though so I could be wrong. .
What happened was a chain was selling featured display space to artists for several hundred dollars a week extra and then mixing used copies with the new rather than selling the used copies with the rest of their used copies. The artists cried "foul" and sued.
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Post by Bro Shark » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:07 pm

There was also that thing where Garth Brooks said record stores selling used CDs were ripping him off. And then all the record stores had a party where they'd gather people's Garth Brooks CDs and smash them to pieces.

And then Garth Brooks became..... really fucking weird.

Anyways.

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Post by leigh » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm

xrt99 wrote:The most convenient access-based service has the capability to slay piracy in a capitalist battle because it removes a lot of the steps required to pirate an album. Think about it - a service that means no more having to download, drag to your iPod (potentially delete some songs to make room), unplug it and listen. Sign me up.
e.g. Spotify?

Some of their UI needs improvement, they don't pay musicians very much, and they have some big holes in their catalog (Beatles, Zep, and some other biggies). However as a service, I think Spotify has the high convenience factor that you rightly claim is needed to slay piracy in a capitalist battle.

Leigh

Edit: I just jumped in here and didn't see before that Spotify was already brought up. Regardless, I think it meets your criteria.

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