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ubertar
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Post by ubertar » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:27 pm

chris harris wrote:As far as whether or not you listen to music on a "device", I'm sorry but you're just wrong. Your device may be a turntable, in which case, you've probably already noticed your relatively limited options for music consumption. Or it may be a cd player, in which case you better maintain your existing model and prepare for the day that you won't be able to by new titles. The market doesn't care about your lack of interest in a digital music device. The world has changed and you're in a very small minority that it will soon no longer be cost effective to cater to.
The term "device" in this context doesn't include turntables, cd players, etc. We all know what it means and doesn't mean.

I've downloaded lots of stuff using rapidshare, mediafire, etc. Most of it has been from blogs that feature great music that's out of print, impossible to buy new, and nearly impossible to find used, especially at an affordable price, though buying used doesn't help the artist anyway. Buying new doesn't help an artist who's dead, either.

A few Kim Dotcoms getting rich doesn't bother me. Spotify, Apple and all the rest will and have gotten rich off of artists also. Steve Jobs was a lot richer than Kim Dotcom ever dreamed of. That doesn't bother me either, though what bugs me about Apple is they conned a ton of people into buying into conformity posing as rebellion, but there's nothing new about that and it's a whole other subject.

If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it? Not all music is made by bands or live performers. I can't play my latest record live-- I can't play three instruments at once. Plus, expecting people to have to tour to promote records makes as much sense as expecting filmmakers to tour the world play-acting their film to promote it. Music recordings and live music are totally different media, as different as a stage play and a movie are from each other.

Most people aren't going to pay for something they can get for free. It's just human nature. What they can't get for free is something you haven't done yet-- if they want more from you, someone will have to put up the money for you to be able to make the music, otherwise you'll do something else that pays. I think a model like patronism.com has some potential. I can only speak for myself, but as a music listener I have no interest in something like Spotify. As a music maker, hey, whatever works.

I don't see a whole lot of people over 35 or so with earbuds in. Who wants to listen to music constantly, wherever you go? Most adults want to be present in the real world and not sucked into their head. Listening to music for me is an event, something to focus on, not background noise or muzak or a soundtrack for my day.

As for the market, they lost me the day I went into the record store and all the records were gone. I used to buy records pretty frequently. I've bought only a handful of cds over the years, and most of them were of friends' music, not major label stuff or even any label in some cases. The market won't miss me. I don't care. Put out something worth listening to and I'll buy it-- if there's a way for me to become aware of it. That's a rare enough event in any case that the market won't notice the difference.

There's plenty of music already recorded that's worth listening to that there's easily a lifetime's supply. There's no point in releasing anything if it's not better than something in that lifetime supply of music. Of course, who's to judge? No new titles? Why should I care?
Last edited by ubertar on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Bob Olhsson » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:35 pm

ubertar wrote:...If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?...
I gotta call B.S.!

It is only rightfully up to an artist to decide about making their music available for free or not. That's the only morally acceptable position.
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Post by ubertar » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:38 pm

Bob Olhsson wrote:
ubertar wrote:...If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?...
I gotta call B.S.!

It is only rightfully up to an artist to decide about making their music available for free or not. That's the only morally acceptable position.
You didn't answer the question. It wasn't a statement. How do you call bullshit on a question?

Try again:
If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?

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Post by chris harris » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:38 pm

I can use my mobile device exactly how you use whatever you listen to. To suggest that listening to music on an iPod requires that you get lost in your head listening to earbuds, shows a disconnect and misunderstanding of the modern world.

You may not be interested in these things now. But, you're in a very, very small minority. And, you have every right to hold on to what makes you feel nostalgic about music. But, the world is moving on with or without you.

The difference between Kim Dotcom and Spotify and Apple, is that Spotify and Apple are creating ways to move music listening into the future while compensating artists. Kim Dotcom was straight ripping them off.

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Post by chris harris » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:40 pm

ubertar wrote:If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?
Just because it's free, doesn't mean anyone is going to hear about it. It's a confusing and obtuse question. How do people hear about your free music?

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Post by Bob Olhsson » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:40 pm

ubertar wrote:...Try again:
If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?
However you choose!
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Post by ubertar » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:47 pm

chris harris wrote:I can use my mobile device exactly how you use whatever you listen to. To suggest that listening to music on an iPod requires that you get lost in your head listening to earbuds, shows a disconnect and misunderstanding of the modern world.


I don't buy this at all. I see people with their ipods walking into traffic all the time. People who are shut off from the world they're presently existing in because they're listening to music.
chris harris wrote:You may not be interested in these things now. But, you're in a very, very small minority. And, you have every right to hold on to what makes you feel nostalgic about music. But, the world is moving on with or without you.
Got any stats to back that up? Just because you think that's true doesn't mean it is. And who said anything about nostalgia? I don't listen to music to feel nostalgic. And if the world moves on without me, that's fine... it was never with me to begin with. Nothing's changed.
chris harris wrote:The difference between Kim Dotcom and Spotify and Apple, is that Spotify and Apple are creating ways to move music listening into the future while compensating artists. Kim Dotcom was straight ripping them off.
Sites like megaupload just provide a place to upload files for people to download. It can be a very useful thing, and it's not too different from ftp. Should ftp be outlawed, because some people misuse it?

"Moving music listening into the future" isn't necessarily a good thing. It all depends on what that future is. So far, I'm not too impressed.

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Post by ubertar » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:50 pm

Bob Olhsson wrote:
ubertar wrote:...Try again:
If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?
However you choose!
Seriously... what does that mean?

I choose to beam my music telepathically into the minds of everyone on earth. Are you hearing it now?

Your answer makes no sense. Can you be a little more specific? Any constructive ideas?

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Post by ubertar » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 pm

chris harris wrote:
ubertar wrote:If people can't hear my music for free, how are they going to hear about it?
Just because it's free, doesn't mean anyone is going to hear about it.

That's a non-sequitur. I never said it being free meant anyone would hear about it. I asked how they would hear about it if it wasn't free. Your reply has no relevance.
chris harris wrote:It's a confusing and obtuse question. How do people hear about your free music?
That's an entirely different question. One answer is on music blogs that post music for people with similar taste. But this is a side issue and not relevant to the discussion.

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Post by Bro Shark » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:35 pm

I like what the Melvins are doing. Lots of limited, handcrafted releases with incredible artwork/packaging, tons of different merch items for sale, always coming up with new stuff to collect and enjoy. You can't download the experience of owning stuff like that. I think they are beating the crooks and snakes.

For me, "music" is so much more than what comes out of the speakers. I like to own a release and cherish it, and know that I have the highest possible quality in terms of fidelity. Something that I can listen to repeatedly even if and when my hard drives crash. CDs and records provide that. I ripped my whole CD library to mp3 a few years ago, but kept the discs and I'm sure glad I did. Next project will probably to re-rip everything into FLAC. And even still I'll keep the discs for home listening and enjoyment. Artwork, liner notes, lyrics, whatever the artist intended to be included in the experience. I don't see how you can get any of that from subscribing to a service like Spotify.

I hope this rant isn't too off topic. I guess my point is, there are a lot of ways to tackle a problem. I think the direction the Melvins are going in is inspiring.

I was just looking at Rdio and Spotify for some stuff I've been meaning to check out, and they aren't even aware of the artists I'm interested in. No clue they even exist. So fuck that.

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Post by chris harris » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:43 pm

You're blaming the services for a choice that the bands you're looking for have made. If its not for you, it's not for you. You can keep buying albums from the bands you like. Spotify doesn't choose the music it makes available. The bands decide whether or not to distribute via Spotify.

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Post by fossiltooth » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:52 pm

I don't want to get in the middle of a whole big heated thing that seems to be developing here, but I do want to clarify two quick things that are getting muddled up.

1) Although I'm not in agreement with ubertar on much, he does have one point that's actually true: Physical purchases are not dead yet. After well over a decade of downloads, digital sales are finally, just barely, beginning to surpass physical sales. Those are the numbers. You or I may be the kinds of people who buy a lot of media online, but that doesn't mean that everyone else does yet.

2) Aside from that, I'm going to mostly have to side with Chris and Bob. Ubertar, you have every right to distribute your music for free if you want. I think what you're missing here is that Chris and Bob want you to have the right to choose how you would like to distribute your creations. If you choose "free", then that's fine. Piracy however, takes that right away from everyone.

(PS - Also: Apple pays more than 60% of sales revenue to content producers. Megaupload pays 0%. So, Steve Jobs=Kim Dotcom? Not a very effective analogy. Maybe you can find a better one?)
Last edited by fossiltooth on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Bro Shark » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:54 pm

Just throwing some new ideas into the mix, dude.

Good day.

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Post by fossiltooth » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:58 pm

Bro Shark, I think Chris was responding to ubertar, not dismissing your Melvins comment. Looks like Sunday at 7 is a hot time to be on the interwebs.

You're suggesting more creative products from great, creative artists? Awesome, yes. That's fantastic. But I think that's only one part of what we need. We need a little more enforcement of artists' rights too.
Last edited by fossiltooth on Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by chris harris » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:58 pm

ubertar wrote:
chris harris wrote:I can use my mobile device exactly how you use whatever you listen to. To suggest that listening to music on an iPod requires that you get lost in your head listening to earbuds, shows a disconnect and misunderstanding of the modern world.


I don't buy this at all. I see people with their ipods walking into traffic all the time. People who are shut off from the world they're presently existing in because they're listening to music.
So, just because I see people doing something, the conclusion can be drawn that all people do that thing? This is nonsense. Just because you can, and some people do, listen to iPods with earbuds, doesn't mean that my statement is false. I don't care whether or not you "buy" what I said. What I said is a fact.
ubertar wrote:
chris harris wrote:You may not be interested in these things now. But, you're in a very, very small minority. And, you have every right to hold on to what makes you feel nostalgic about music. But, the world is moving on with or without you.
Got any stats to back that up? Just because you think that's true doesn't mean it is. And who said anything about nostalgia? I don't listen to music to feel nostalgic. And if the world moves on without me, that's fine... it was never with me to begin with. Nothing's changed.
No. I don't have any statistics. And, I don't feel obligated to provide them. Again, if you dispute that more people are listening to music on mobile devices than traditional stereo systems, you're just oblivious to the obvious changes taking place all around you. It doesn't matter to me what you do or don't believe. If you don't care about the future of music and music distribution, then why bother posting, or even reading, this discussion? Your stubborn perspective doesn't contribute much, other than naysaying.
ubertar wrote:
chris harris wrote:The difference between Kim Dotcom and Spotify and Apple, is that Spotify and Apple are creating ways to move music listening into the future while compensating artists. Kim Dotcom was straight ripping them off.
Sites like megaupload just provide a place to upload files for people to download. It can be a very useful thing, and it's not too different from ftp. Should ftp be outlawed, because some people misuse it?
You should do some more research about what megaupload was trying to do, and what Kim Dotcom is actually charged with. You're clearly uninformed about the facts. And, no, I don't consider it my responsibility to educate you on the matter. I'm just pointing out that you're wrong. If you want to know why, check with Google.
ubertar wrote:"Moving music listening into the future" isn't necessarily a good thing. It all depends on what that future is. So far, I'm not too impressed.
It's a good thing that the future doesn't hinge on what impresses someone who admits to not caring much.

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