Live dub controlled from the stage

[Jed]

Hi all,

I know this isn?t exactly the right forum for this question, but I refuse to frequent GearSl*tz. So bear with me or give me a suggestion as to where I should post this, please.

The situation is this: I?m in a rootsy ska band with three horns. We?re interested in trying out some live dub effects, but we don?t have a live sound person that we bring to shows - we just use the house?s sound person.

My question is: why shouldn?t we get a mixer, the effects we want, run the horn mics into our stage mixer, run effects through auxes, and deliver the horns as separate outputs to the house (maybe slap a limiter on the output of each)? Between myself and the trumpet player we have decent amount of recording and live sound experience and the gear in our basements to do this. The trumpet player would be very capable of controlling the effects for the other horn players while they are soloing.

In my research elsewhere online there is not a lot of support for artists controlling effects from the stage for anything other than what is going to come out of an amplifier. The gist of the arguments I?ve seen is that the artist on stage can?t possibly know how the effects sound in the house and the result is going to be a mess - muddy, distorted sound, etc.

This strikes me as a demonstrably false argument. My hypothesis is that plenty of electronic/laptop acts are controlling tons of effects from stage and delivering (I would guess) no more than a stereo output to the house. They use their stage monitors and their experience to understand what things sound like. Am I right? Or are these guys all toting soundguys who control all their effects back at the house board? I can?t see that but may be you know.

So what do you think? Am I off base or is this worth a try? We can easily practice this idea in our practice space but I?m reluctant to put a lot of time into things if I?m going to cause all the local sound guys to have a heart attack when they see us show up with a stage effects rig.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Z-Plane]

Could work out, but could also be risky if you ever need loud monitors. That part could be a real nightmare unless you go IEM because any feedback creeping into a dub fx chain will go nuclear pretty quick. Limiters would again raise your noisefloor and all you might need at FOH is a touch of compression. For the stage vibe I'd suggest you control the fx via an expression pedal so you don't lose a horn player, there's not much funk to a dude turning fx pots on stage. Basically don't do this by half, turn up fully self contained with your own mics, mixer (probably want a wide parametric EQ) and whatever monitoring you decide on.

[Jed]

Fair points. Thanks.

I'll have to think about how we could handle the monitoring situation.

[chris harris]

If you're gonna send individual channel outs for each horn channel to FOH, then the effects you have on an aux wouldn't be included. If you don't understand that, then operating your own mixer from the stage could turn out to be a nightmare. I only recommend this if you're very, very confident about signal flow and gain staging.

I've never had trouble running effects from stage because I ran a FOH rig for years and I'm confident I can fix any issues before the engineer knows that they exist.

[cale w]

Man, as soon I as move to PDX, I want you to tote me around as your sound guy! I've been been pondering what you're pondering for years. My Seattle ska band just played Plan B in SE Portland on thursday... what's your outfit called?

[chris harris]

^best solution^

[Jed]

If you're gonna send individual channel outs for each horn channel to FOH, then the effects you have on an aux wouldn't be included.

Well, inserts or bus sends depending on what would work given the effects/mixer. I understand gain staging just fine. I brought and ran all our equipment for the last three years prior to us playing larger venues (typically 10 plus mics, 4-5 monitors, plus mains). At a show years ago we ran a reverb and delay as auxes on the main mix and I would would dub up the sound on a couple songs. That was before our trumpet player came on board. Since I play bass it basically meant I had to cut out for parts of the song. It worked fine but was not ideal since I'm a rhythm player.

Cale -- we've probably played together but haven't been introduced - I'm in the 'Orginal Middle Age Ska Enjoy Club.' (The friendly with the world's silliest name.) We played with you guys at the beginning of Jan, yes? And if you are moving down here then, yes, we should talk. I almost wen't to Thursday's show but I wasn't feeling well (turns out I have strep throat, so it's just as well I stayed home and didn't infect anyone). Our drummer and mandolin player were there though.

Jed

[Jed]

Ha! Just looked you up, Cale. We have met. You played through my bass rig at the Jan 7 show. I had just put that rig together two days before and am still dialing it in.

[ricey]

my friend in NY does just that with his band, Dub Is A Weapon.
he plays guitar, but has a small mixer set up onstage w/ some pedal effects.
he does his own mic'ing(alongside the house mic's) - snare, guit, horns & percussion i believe - and sends the effects mix to the house desk. works a treat!

[cale w]

Yeah, I'd guess it either works great or it doesn't. Z-Plane is right, long delays and explodey reverbs going nuclear would definitely be the risk. But I'd say just try it, get it dialed in at practice and make it work for you, getting it right would be stellar! I think getting a sound-guy-as-part-of-the-band (offstage) sort of thing would be the easiest way to do it. It's hard to find someone with a knack for the feel of dub though, that isn't already playing bass or trombone in a ska band.

Thanks for letting us use your bass rig Jed! The Toasters killed it last thursday, it was a righteous show. I'm not moving to portland anytime soon, but I keep threatening it.

[inasilentway]

There's a couple ways to do this. Even though some house guys might not love this method, here's what I'd do in your shoes to not have to spend a ton of money and set up a bunch of stuff every show. It doesn't involve splitters or mixers at all.

Get a 57, the Boss Space Echo pedal (which I have and love, use it as a FOH FX send all the time), and a Radial Hotshot mic muter. If you already have a 57, total outlay is $308 (tax-free shopping!) The Space echo pedal will take a mic level input, and you'll probably want to put something to mute it (volume pedal or tuner) right before the DI in case of runaway feedback. so it'll look like 57 -> mic cable -> hotshot -> xlr to 1/4" -> space echo -> volume pedal -> DI.

Then, put the 57 on a stand amidst the other horn mics and tell the sound guy the horns are only going to turn it on for their dub parts so he can't complain about bleed. Check during soundcheck to make sure the levels are good, and don't let him tell you that you can't have any at all in the monitor, or get a little powered JBL or Mackie for independence.

It's much less flexible than having your own mixer, but also way simpler and you can always add complexity later. I once mixed a reggae band whose guitar player controlled horn and snare dubs in a similar manner (minus the Radials) and it worked out great even though he just ran them through a second guitar amp I mic'd up, a little gnarly but once I got the mix right it sounded great. he even had expression pedals controlling the regeneration!

I just moved to Portland and tour as FOH for a band from town, and occasionally work at the Doug Fir. If you want a more detailed explanation of this idea, buy me a coffee when I get back in town. or for a lunch I can help you brainstorm a more complex rig, but I really think this is the way to go for simplicity's sake.

[Jed]

That's an excellent suggestion, thanks!

I had just been thinking that maybe a one-mic solution would be the easiest route. A momentary switch to cut in is a perfect idea and an easy way to kill feedback if it occurs. (Plus I can whip one out from parts in my basement, but thanks for the idea Radial.)