aligning transfer from tape

[jstark]

Hey guys:

So I just deduced that the MS-16 that was sold to me as a 15ips model is, in fact, a 30ips model. after feeling a little bummed for a while, I decided that this really only impacts recording bass and kick. (that is, until I mod the unit for 15ips operation)

Until then, I'm trying to come up with a good workflow for tracking to tape, while tracking kick and bass simultaneously to digital. Obviously, the Right Thing to do would be drop a bunch more $$$ on a synchronizer. (if the MS-16 wasn't enough of a clue, I don't exactly have the finances for the Right Thing)

In lieu of that, another thought occurred to me: I've never used Vocalign, but it seems like it might be a poor-man's solution. Say I track bass to tape and digital, and then dump the analog track into PT. Could I then use vocalign to conform the digital track to the dumped-analog track?

What sort of artifacts does vocalign impart? Is it anything similar to the artifacts Ableton produces in stretched tracks?

Thanks for your help,
David

[kslight]

I'm not clear here...are you only wanting to record bass and kick to tape, or is that your intended sync source...or? Are you wanting to track to tape then dump to digital and mix from digital?

My process is just to record everything to tape that's going to be on tape...then transfer to digital (all tracks simultaneously). As long as you transfer all of them at the same time on the same pass sync shouldn't be an issue...

I've never used Vocalign the way you are suggesting, but I don't see why it wouldn't work as far as syncing the analog recorded bass to the digital one goes. Its not something I'd probably want to use on all tracks, depending on how far off it would be you can hear artifacts, but for this scenario it shouldn't be off that far I would think.

[E.Bennett]

What don't you like when you track bass guitar and bass drum to the ms16 at 30ips?

[palinilap]

What I do is send to tape and DAW at the same time, manually nudge the tape track back to align with the DAW track, and then delete the DAW track.

So it's:

mic > mixer > sending 2 identical signals
> DAW (This is the track I'll monitor)
>Tape deck record head > playback head > DAW

However, this is only for overdubs. I don't record let's say overheads to tape, kick to DAW, and then align it after the fact because of the possible phase implications.

I remember there being a thread several years ago though where a TapeOp'er came up with an ingenious way of doing this. I've search for it before and couldn't find it.

[jstark]

I'm not clear here...are you only wanting to record bass and kick to tape, or is that your intended sync source...or? Are you wanting to track to tape then dump to digital and mix from digital?

Let's say I'm tracking drums and bass--I would like to track *everything* to tape, while multing the kick drum and bass guitar into PT. Then, I would like to dump the tape into PT, and then line up the digitally-recorded kick and bass tracks to match the analog-recorded tracks. (ultimately, using the digitally-recorded tracks and dropping the analog kick and bass)

manually nudge the tape track back to align with the DAW track, and then delete the DAW track.

This has never worked for me. Let's say I'm aligning an overdub tracked to tape (and then dumped): I line up the downbeat of the first measure--while it stays in sync for a few measures, by measure 5 or 9 it's out of sync. Inevitably, I have to go through the entire song, tabbing to transient, manually lining up every fourth (or so) downbeat. I don't know if this is a shitty Tascam transport issue, or if I'd have the same issue with a Studer.

What don't you like when you track bass guitar and bass drum to the ms16 at 30ips?

The -3dB point on the low end is in the neighborhood of 120Hz.

[chris harris]

What a nightmare of confusion and misunderstandings. Just choose analog or digital and record music.

[Matt C.]

i'd say it's probably not worth the trouble, just wait until you modify the machine to run at 15ips

the simplest way I can think of would probably work for the bass, but maybe not the kick drum: do something to create quick clear transients before and after the take on both the kick and bass tracks. you can use those to line up the digital tracks with the tape tracks, and since you have two points of reference it'll be more clear if you have to time stretch those tracks to compensate for the tape machine playing back at a different speed. My guess is this wouldn't be precise enough to avoid phase issues for a kick drum that's being picked up in several other drum mics, but for a bass alone it would probably be fine. I doubt it's worth doing anything more complicated than this.

[E.Bennett]

My memory is shoddy regarding the ms16. Is there no low frequency eq adjustment on the ms16? After you calibrate and align your machine, is there a 3db dip at 120hz or does it drop off steadily below 120hz?

When I had an ATR60 (similar machine) I would frequently run it at 30ips. The low end was certainly not ruler flat, but it wasn't an insurmountable issue. I would merely eq bass a bit heavier on the way in. 30ips sounded pretty good as it would allow disengaging the dbx.

If you are against counteracting the non-linear nature of your machine, I suppose this might work...

1.Record to your tape machine with a mult of the bass drum and bass guitar going to your DAW.
2. While recording on tape, record into the DAW using the ms16 repro head as your source.
3. Now you should have all tracks recorded to tape in your DAW plus an extra bass drum and bass guitar track (from the mults that were recorded simultaneously but bypassing the ms16).
4. Slide those tracks to line up with the bass drum and bass guitar track recorded to your ms16.

Of course this method doesn't allow for overdubs on tape. Without syncing, you can't line things up after several passes due to time drift of the ms16.

[Matt C.]

yeah the method above would be ideal if you don't need to the tape machine outs for headphone mixes or anything.

from what i've heard, the bass issue on the 30ips MS16 is way worse than you'd expect. it's not just "not ruler flat", i think it drops of very steeply. according to Jim Williams, Tascam did the 30ips thing too quickly without any sort of redesign process for the rest of the machine, so the doubled speed caused some major frequency response problems. there is a low freq adjust pot for calibration, but i think the problem might be too severe to be fixed with that.

[palinilap]

This has never worked for me. Let's say I'm aligning an overdub tracked to tape (and then dumped): I line up the downbeat of the first measure--while it stays in sync for a few measures, by measure 5 or 9 it's out of sync. Inevitably, I have to go through the entire song, tabbing to transient, manually lining up every fourth (or so) downbeat. I don't know if this is a shitty Tascam transport issue, or if I'd have the same issue with a Studer.

Instead of dumping afterwards monitor off of tape and send directly to the DAW as you're recording. Once you get it lined up there shouldn't be any significant drift.

[drumsound]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, you have a 30ips machine (one speed only?) and you've read that the low end won't sound good (here on the internets>?) so you plan to record bass and BD on your computer instead. BUT, you have not yet actually RECORDED anything into said tape machine. Am I correct? If I am, my first suggestion is to align the machine and RECORD SOMETHING, and then LISTEN to said recording.

[blungo2]

Gotta say i use the same process as palinilap. I record simultaneously to digital and tape, then pull the tape in and align it to the digital. It's quick, easy and allows me to track to tape and mix digitally. I see it as the best of both worlds but obviously some will disagree.

edit: as palinilap said pulling the digital off the tape monitor helps facilitate the process.