Flipping phase on vocals in the mix

[iamthecosmos]

I've been mixing a tune where flipping phase on the vocal seemed to bring it out more and pushed other elements back in the mix. I could be going mad however.

Is this likely to cause any problems further on, or as the vocal has no bleed from anywhere should I go with it?

[vvv]

Should be fine, but do check the mix in mono.

[farview]

Some people's voices just have more push in one direction than another. If it sounds good, it is good.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

go with it :)

[top_ape]

Some people's voices just have more push in one direction than another. If it sounds good, it is good.

Really?

If you can hear a difference who am I to say you can't? But is there any objective basis for this?

I've seen Wes Dooley recommend flipping the phase when recording with the negative side of a figure 8 ribbon, even in isolation and I never understood that.

so what's the deal? Anyone care to enlighten?

[dfuruta]

Part of this might be your monitoring chain?some speakers distort asymmetrically. Doesn't seem like there'd be a good reason not to flip the polarity, though, if it sounds better...

[E.Bennett]

Is it possible there is a slight bit of headphone bleed on that vocal track that is creating a slight phase issue?

[Nick Sevilla]

Some people's voices just have more push in one direction than another. If it sounds good, it is good.

Really?

If you can hear a difference who am I to say you can't? But is there any objective basis for this?

I've seen Wes Dooley recommend flipping the phase when recording with the negative side of a figure 8 ribbon, even in isolation and I never understood that.

so what's the deal? Anyone care to enlighten?

This is because you ideally want that single vocal to have a positive absolute phase.

Absolute phase just means which direction the speaker moves in when the INITIAL sound reaches it.

With a figure 8 mic, each lobe has opposite phase to each other. In Wes Dooley's case, his mics have POSITIVE absolute phase in the FRONT of the mic.

The back of the mic has exactly the opposite phase to the front.

Which means that if you were to record a single vocal with the BACK of this type of microphone, you would have a NEGATIVE initial phase going to your speaker.

This can be a bad thing, or it can be a good thing.

But, most of the time is a bad thing.

Now back to the OP question:

Check the phase on ALL your instruments. Sometimes in a mix there are variances in phase between instruments, which when you flip the phase on the lead vocal, may appear to make it sound better.

At this point you have to check things in MONO. I bet you find some reverse phase stuff right in the lead vocals frequency range.

Cheers

[losthighway]

I have always understood phase to only be relevant in so far as it is interacting with other elements. Re: Is there headphone bleed?

I have a hard time understanding a sonic difference flipping phase on something that was recorded in isolation unless there was some weird problem like DC offset.

For practical considerations I think Marcs comment of 'go with it' is right on.
For theoretical considerations I find this confusing and interesting.

[vvv]

Hmm.

I'm gonna propose a theory: if you look at Mr. Sevila's post and note that "absolute phase" has the initial sound onna track moving the speaker inna certain direction, would it not make sense that you want the initial sound of any track moving the same direction if that initial sound lines up with another track's initial sound?

In other words, if something on Track A is on the beat, and something on Track B is on the beat, you might want them both moving the speaker in the same direction on that beat.

Now, feel free to make fun of me but please have mercy on my moms on this Mutha's Day.

[farview]

Some people have a voice that, if you look at the waveform, has more energy in one direction than it does in another. Depending on what else is going on in the mix, it is very possible that flipping the polarity could make the vocals stick out more against the music.

Horns tend to have this same sort of waveform that looks like DC offset, but isn't. It's just an asymmetrical wave. (the way you can tell if it isn't DC offset is to look at the silence. If the silence isn't at the zero crossing, then it is DC offset, if it is at the zero crossing, it's just an asymmetrical wave)

Old AM radio stations used to have a phase button and every DJ knew which way to flip it to make their voice sound bigger through the limiters and other processing it goes through on the way to the transmitter.

[ashcat_lt]

Most radio stations have a phase rotator (an all-pass filter very much like the IBP thing, I suspect) which shifts each different frequency by a different amount and can help to "symmetrify" some voices and make them soundly subtly bigger and fuller. It also opens up some headroom and can help a compressor (for instance) work more consistently.

The thing with a voice is a bit different from a horn where the wind coming out the end puts a (more or less) constant pressure on the mic. This actually is a DC offset, though it drops off at the beginning and end of each blow. Don't know if a phase rotator would help here,but an HPF might.

[mjau]

I do this with bass and kick all the time (something I learned via this Board). It can make a big difference.

[frans_13]

Sometimes it's just the way the rest of the signal combines with your vocal track, the way the peaks and valleys add up to form the big stereo waveform. So, yes, if it sounds better, flip the polatrity button.
Especially the "...and pushed other elements back in the mix" was a giveaway.

About absolute phase: I have read a few things about it, for example a few pages in Australias AudioTechnology from the guy at Turtlerock mastering, an incident with a new power amp where he heard that absolute phase made a difference and it has been driving him crazy. Sean Genocky talked about it in a workshop which was covered by UK's resolution magazine, concerning absolute phase with kick and snare. I know that phase relationships make or break a drumsound, but I always wanted to know more about absolute phase regarding that topic - anybody out there who can point me to more info about it?

[farview]

Most radio stations have a phase rotator (an all-pass filter very much like the IBP thing, I suspect) which shifts each different frequency by a different amount and can help to "symmetrify" some voices and make them soundly subtly bigger and fuller. It also opens up some headroom and can help a compressor (for instance) work more consistently.

The thing with a voice is a bit different from a horn where the wind coming out the end puts a (more or less) constant pressure on the mic. This actually is a DC offset, though it drops off at the beginning and end of each blow. Don't know if a phase rotator would help here,but an HPF might.

I'm talking about the 1940's through the 1960's AM stations.

A horn waveform isn't DC offset. DC offset is an electrical problem, not a waveform issue. The waveform of a horn is actually more powerful in one direction than the other.