Oh, I agree that bonding in the box could be helpful. I just don't think bonding to a box that isn't bonded properly in the panel is going to be useful. OP mentioned his electrician friend telling him to run a wire to the water pipe. That tells me there isn't a grounding electrode conductor.
I think your idea is great, we just have to make sure the box is holding hands with the electrode.
Ground question
My electrician friend hasn't been to the house. He lives kinda far away.. I called him and told him what I experienced: old house; buzz whether touching the strings or not; ground lift in signal chain has no effect on the buzz. He said the wiring in my house is likely knob and tube. Given the time it was built I think that is true.
Still haven't had a chance to investigate the four questions posted earlier. I will do so this weekend. You guys are great for helping!
Still haven't had a chance to investigate the four questions posted earlier. I will do so this weekend. You guys are great for helping!
Knob and tube in metro areas in the 1930's? Possible. Hadn't thought of that, though it's favor had fallen out by then. It's also possible that there is a largely BX system that taps various portions of knob and tube sections of the house. Offer to buy your friend a nice dinner to give it at least a visual inspection. Crawl around the attic (if there is one). Poke around the basement, etc. It'll be worth it. The good news is that even if it's K&T if you have a dedicated area for music we can still fix the problem without gutting your house.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
1. Main. There is a sub panel, but from what I can tell it is servicing the garage only.goose134 wrote:A few basic questions to proceed:
1. Is the panel in question the main panel or a sub panel? (Sub panels would be fed from the main)
2. What size service do you have. The main breaker should be marked, but if not, the cover will have the info.
3. Is the water pipe serving the structure metallic?
4. Are the circuits going into the panel in flexible metallic conduit (BX) or conduit?
2. 100 amp 120/240 ac max
3. Yes? I definitely don't see any PVC down there.
4. Conduit
Good!
OK, since this is the main panel, the only other thing you have to determine is whether or not there already IS a grounding electrode conductor. It doesn't sound like there is. You should see a copper wire that is terminated on the neutral bus (the white wire) and goes to the water pipe. Code says the EGC must terminate on the pipe within 5 feet of it's entry in the structure. Most of the time, people hit the closest water pipe to the panel.
Look for that and only if you don't find it, proceed with these instructions.
Things you will need: Ground clamp for whatever size pipe you are bonding to.
take all connector
#6 wire (yes I'm oversizing it, but it's readily available and not that much more that #8)
1. Route a #6 copper wire from outside your panel (leaving enough slack to reach anything inside of it, say 3 feet) to the entry of the water pipe in your residence.
2, Using a ground clamp (can be purchased at big box stores), strip the #6 and terminate to the ground clamp on the water pipe.
3. Shed the load of the panel by turning off the breakers until they are all off.
4. Turn off the main. Bear in mind that the conductors terminating at the breaker will still be hot, but it will de-energize the bus and the branch wiring.
5. Take a knockout off the panel and install your take-all connector.
6. Run the #6 through the take-all connector and bring enough into the panel to land on the neutral bus.
7. Cut the wire to size, strip and land on the neutral bus.
8. Make sure that the main bonding screw is installed in the panel. This will usually be a large green screw that bonds the neutral with the enclosure,
9. Energize the main breaker.
10. energize branch circuits.
Now I feel certain that conduit provides you with most of the home runs in the house and some of the basement feeds. Over the years, and even in the original installs, BX was commonly used to feed outlets from a ceiling box. Either way, you have a metallic raceway which is mechanically bonded to the system. The lack of a ground wire is endemic in this type of system.
I know this sounds a little daunting. Don't let it be. Google images of Main bonding screw. Ground clamp and so on so you know what you're looking for and at. After that, the only thing we may have to chase is the dreaded neutral bond at the outlet. These must be chased as they create a hugely dangerous condition in which the raceway will carry current. Let's keep our fingers crossed in the meantime and take care of the problem at had. Keep me posted and don't be afraid to ask. I've learned a great deal in this forum and this is one area I feel I can educate in. My tagline says it all.
OK, since this is the main panel, the only other thing you have to determine is whether or not there already IS a grounding electrode conductor. It doesn't sound like there is. You should see a copper wire that is terminated on the neutral bus (the white wire) and goes to the water pipe. Code says the EGC must terminate on the pipe within 5 feet of it's entry in the structure. Most of the time, people hit the closest water pipe to the panel.
Look for that and only if you don't find it, proceed with these instructions.
Things you will need: Ground clamp for whatever size pipe you are bonding to.
take all connector
#6 wire (yes I'm oversizing it, but it's readily available and not that much more that #8)
1. Route a #6 copper wire from outside your panel (leaving enough slack to reach anything inside of it, say 3 feet) to the entry of the water pipe in your residence.
2, Using a ground clamp (can be purchased at big box stores), strip the #6 and terminate to the ground clamp on the water pipe.
3. Shed the load of the panel by turning off the breakers until they are all off.
4. Turn off the main. Bear in mind that the conductors terminating at the breaker will still be hot, but it will de-energize the bus and the branch wiring.
5. Take a knockout off the panel and install your take-all connector.
6. Run the #6 through the take-all connector and bring enough into the panel to land on the neutral bus.
7. Cut the wire to size, strip and land on the neutral bus.
8. Make sure that the main bonding screw is installed in the panel. This will usually be a large green screw that bonds the neutral with the enclosure,
9. Energize the main breaker.
10. energize branch circuits.
Now I feel certain that conduit provides you with most of the home runs in the house and some of the basement feeds. Over the years, and even in the original installs, BX was commonly used to feed outlets from a ceiling box. Either way, you have a metallic raceway which is mechanically bonded to the system. The lack of a ground wire is endemic in this type of system.
I know this sounds a little daunting. Don't let it be. Google images of Main bonding screw. Ground clamp and so on so you know what you're looking for and at. After that, the only thing we may have to chase is the dreaded neutral bond at the outlet. These must be chased as they create a hugely dangerous condition in which the raceway will carry current. Let's keep our fingers crossed in the meantime and take care of the problem at had. Keep me posted and don't be afraid to ask. I've learned a great deal in this forum and this is one area I feel I can educate in. My tagline says it all.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
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Seamonster
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Goose,
Looks like you're doing greatness for Bro Shark (I only say "looks like" because I'm not an expert).
A brief digression. You wrote:
- K Hill
Looks like you're doing greatness for Bro Shark (I only say "looks like" because I'm not an expert).
A brief digression. You wrote:
What exactly is the point of "shedding the load"? When I shut off the main, I make sure to first turn off any sensitive loads (computers, etc.) and high current-draw appliances, but I've figured that there's no reason to add mechanical wear & tear to the breaker switches in my old main panel. Am I wrong? Is there a reason not to re-energize the system with all the breaker circuits closed?goose134 wrote:3. Shed the load of the panel by turning off the breakers until they are all off.
4. Turn off the main.
- K Hill
www.seamonstersounds.com
"May my silences become more accurate." -Theodore Roethke, poet
"May my silences become more accurate." -Theodore Roethke, poet
Shedding the load is something I've gotten in the habit of doing. Modern breakers and pressure switches break the contact quickly so there isn't much arc on a high draw, but there is still some. When you start de energizing 4000 amp switchgear, you want to get in the habit.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
Please do. If you'd like to post pictures of your panel I might see something that warrants investigation. If you feel unsure about ANYTHING, please ask.Bro Shark wrote:Holy crap! Wow. Look at that advice. Off to school I go... thanks goose134. I'll update with progress when the time comes.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
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