hi all this is my first post on the this forum so please forgive me if I did something incorrect and let me know what I can do to make it better for the community.
I recently moved in an older house and the wiring is fairly old. all my receptacles are two pronges but are grounded. I am going to switch them out for the modern three prong ones shortly.
I plan on putting a nice project studio in one of the rooms and will be investing heavily in analog gear and high end converters. when all is said and done I plan on spending about 20k on gear alone.
I know power conditioners will protect my equipment from browns and surges but what would you professionals recommend I do in order to protect and power all of my equipment optimally? should I worry about isolating the power outlets in my studio from the rest of the house. I just don't want to have to worry about power. and I would like to get this out of the way before I start buying some high end stuff. hiring an electrician is also definitely an option for me.
one more thing about my house is when the air conditioning kicks on the lights in the house dim for a second. how can I protect my gear from this? would a power conditioner work well here?
thank you for taking the time to read this I look forward to your replies. Rock On!
clean power and protecting high end gear in a project studio
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spaceantelope
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Gregg Juke
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spaceantelope
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GJ, thank you for the reply.
I was hoping to get some replys on here before I consult a electrician, since im not even sure what questions to ask them. I am just curious as to what the typical project studio owner does about power in his studio. Do most people just get a power conditioner, put it at the top of a rack and plug everything into that? should I worry about putting too much of a load on the breaker and tripping it? do people pay close attention to how much power their gear is using? what can be done on my end before a contact an electrician? I have a Furman that I use to protect my guitar rig, can I trust a Furman to protect all of my equipment?
For as long as I have been into audio this seems to be a subject where I know very little, and I havent seen that much info on this stuff. I know it's not the most interesting of subjects but I feel it's important to any studio.
just to get an idea about what sort of gear I will be using (for power purposes) here is a list: Apogee Symphony Converters (16x16 analog), SH Equinox, 500 series rack, Focal Monitors, Computer (not sure yet). among other goodies that I'm still deciding on. I realize that some of this stuff has its own power supply but should I still worry about the load it's using? Any professional insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
I was hoping to get some replys on here before I consult a electrician, since im not even sure what questions to ask them. I am just curious as to what the typical project studio owner does about power in his studio. Do most people just get a power conditioner, put it at the top of a rack and plug everything into that? should I worry about putting too much of a load on the breaker and tripping it? do people pay close attention to how much power their gear is using? what can be done on my end before a contact an electrician? I have a Furman that I use to protect my guitar rig, can I trust a Furman to protect all of my equipment?
For as long as I have been into audio this seems to be a subject where I know very little, and I havent seen that much info on this stuff. I know it's not the most interesting of subjects but I feel it's important to any studio.
just to get an idea about what sort of gear I will be using (for power purposes) here is a list: Apogee Symphony Converters (16x16 analog), SH Equinox, 500 series rack, Focal Monitors, Computer (not sure yet). among other goodies that I'm still deciding on. I realize that some of this stuff has its own power supply but should I still worry about the load it's using? Any professional insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
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Gregg Juke
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There are some electricians right here at the TOMB that I'm sure will get around to answering your questions more indepth, but they will ask for details too, how old is the house, how old is the wiring, have there been any updates, how many amps is your incoming service... You need to make sure that you have (more than) enough, and of course proper grounding is important. We recently moved to a new facility, and while everything is pretty much new, we noticed a weird situation where one wall was losing power, but no breakers would trip. Strange, but something was loose in the wall and an electrician took care of it (on the landlord's dime, thankfully).
If you will be making any modifications (such as adding any break-out boxes; we use snakes, but we had to drill holes in the walls to run cable), make sure you have a good idea of where the wiring is.
Other than that, get the aforementioned Furman and a UPS, and seek professional council. As to the power conditioner, I forget the model number, but we have both a power conditioner and a _regulator_, meaning it makes sure that whatever is plugged into it gets a steady stream of pretty much spot-on 120, even if the power dips. that would be something good for your studio, and also if you play live.
GJ
If you will be making any modifications (such as adding any break-out boxes; we use snakes, but we had to drill holes in the walls to run cable), make sure you have a good idea of where the wiring is.
Other than that, get the aforementioned Furman and a UPS, and seek professional council. As to the power conditioner, I forget the model number, but we have both a power conditioner and a _regulator_, meaning it makes sure that whatever is plugged into it gets a steady stream of pretty much spot-on 120, even if the power dips. that would be something good for your studio, and also if you play live.
GJ
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spaceantelope
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The house is from the 1960s (actually not as old as i thought). All circuits are grounded even though they are only two prong; they have a bx cable running from the box to the breaker. There are two electrical panels: One has the value 100 marked on the main switch (im guessing amps?), the seconded is marked 200 and looks newer and is pretty much empty.
As far as running cables, im not too worried about it. My basement is unfinished and I can visibly see all the wires and pipes running across the house; making it easy to run cable from room to room.
As stated i do have a furman pc for my guitar equipment. It has a digital reading of the voltage which fluctuates from 122 to 117v - while on the subject does the pc provide a constant 120v stream even though the meter reads 117 or 122 (or is that what the regulator does)? I have also noticed that when the ac kicks in and the lights slightly dim the pc shows no change in voltage. this leads me to believe that it isn't reacting quick enough or there is no dip in voltage.
I will be sure to take your advise and talk to a professional electrician and get another furman and a ups. In the mean time any other comments or concerns will be appreciated. also others reading please share how you power/protect your studio.
thanks!
As far as running cables, im not too worried about it. My basement is unfinished and I can visibly see all the wires and pipes running across the house; making it easy to run cable from room to room.
As stated i do have a furman pc for my guitar equipment. It has a digital reading of the voltage which fluctuates from 122 to 117v - while on the subject does the pc provide a constant 120v stream even though the meter reads 117 or 122 (or is that what the regulator does)? I have also noticed that when the ac kicks in and the lights slightly dim the pc shows no change in voltage. this leads me to believe that it isn't reacting quick enough or there is no dip in voltage.
I will be sure to take your advise and talk to a professional electrician and get another furman and a ups. In the mean time any other comments or concerns will be appreciated. also others reading please share how you power/protect your studio.
thanks!
The 100 amp panel is probably the original and the 200 is a recent add on. What will tell you if your service conductors are sized correctly are the wires making the connection to the utiity. Unless it's an underground service. A 200 amp panel with 100A conductors is a big no no. If it's sized for 200 A (should be 3/0 cable) then you're good to go. If you see #3, then it's sized for 100 A.
As for the dimming of the lights, it's normal. When motors start there is a large amount of initial current draw (called inrush current). Often times it can be 6 to 8 times the normal running current. It is momentary, but it does drop the voltage momentarily. A UPS will eliminate that problem as you will be running on battery power.
As far as how clean your power is depends on a lot. You at least have a metallic raceway, so RF won't be nearly as bad as Romex. Make double sure those outlets have good ground continuity. See the thread on ground question to determine if your grounding electrode conductor is in place. 1960's code allowed for undersizing of neutrals in a balanced panel. See if your neutral is the same size as your hots. Ground rods outside your meter were not required either. If you have a significant amount of lightning activity, you may want to consider installing ground rods.
As an aside, when used in conjunction with a water pipe ground, the only function of the ground rod is to dissipate a lightning strike to the service.
As for the dimming of the lights, it's normal. When motors start there is a large amount of initial current draw (called inrush current). Often times it can be 6 to 8 times the normal running current. It is momentary, but it does drop the voltage momentarily. A UPS will eliminate that problem as you will be running on battery power.
As far as how clean your power is depends on a lot. You at least have a metallic raceway, so RF won't be nearly as bad as Romex. Make double sure those outlets have good ground continuity. See the thread on ground question to determine if your grounding electrode conductor is in place. 1960's code allowed for undersizing of neutrals in a balanced panel. See if your neutral is the same size as your hots. Ground rods outside your meter were not required either. If you have a significant amount of lightning activity, you may want to consider installing ground rods.
As an aside, when used in conjunction with a water pipe ground, the only function of the ground rod is to dissipate a lightning strike to the service.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
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spaceantelope
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goose thanks for the info, great stuff. after checking the main lines running from the exterior into the utility panel I saw these markings:
10/3 with ground 600v for the 100a panel. (the cable comes in from outside goes to a 240v 30 amp box - tagged 220v line to ac in living room - then into the main 100amp panel). all the recepticals look to be connected to this panel and I believe this is the box providing power to the room I plan on putting the studio in. (panel is poorly labeled and i didn't want to mess with it now).
8AWG/3 with ground 600v goes to 200a panel.
I can provided pictures if needed.
I have a wall outlit tester that lights up when plugged in. when I tested the outlets i got a good reading telling me that they a wired properly. I will be sure to give that grounding thread a good read though. I will also check out if the wires are the same size and report back.
We do not get a significant amount of lightning where I live.
thanks!
10/3 with ground 600v for the 100a panel. (the cable comes in from outside goes to a 240v 30 amp box - tagged 220v line to ac in living room - then into the main 100amp panel). all the recepticals look to be connected to this panel and I believe this is the box providing power to the room I plan on putting the studio in. (panel is poorly labeled and i didn't want to mess with it now).
8AWG/3 with ground 600v goes to 200a panel.
I can provided pictures if needed.
I have a wall outlit tester that lights up when plugged in. when I tested the outlets i got a good reading telling me that they a wired properly. I will be sure to give that grounding thread a good read though. I will also check out if the wires are the same size and report back.
We do not get a significant amount of lightning where I live.
thanks!
The 10/3 you are seeing is probably the air conditioner feed FROM the panel. If you've got #10 wire feeding a 100 amp panel, there are going to be larger problems.spaceantelope wrote:goose thanks for the info, great stuff. after checking the main lines running from the exterior into the utility panel I saw these markings:
10/3 with ground 600v for the 100a panel. (the cable comes in from outside goes to a 240v 30 amp box - tagged 220v line to ac in living room - then into the main 100amp panel). all the recepticals look to be connected to this panel and I believe this is the box providing power to the room I plan on putting the studio in. (panel is poorly labeled and i didn't want to mess with it now).
8AWG/3 with ground 600v goes to 200a panel.
I can provided pictures if needed.
I have a wall outlit tester that lights up when plugged in. when I tested the outlets i got a good reading telling me that they a wired properly. I will be sure to give that grounding thread a good read though. I will also check out if the wires are the same size and report back.
We do not get a significant amount of lightning where I live.
thanks!
As it stands, I can nearly guarantee that the 200A panel being fed with #8 is probably a sub panel fed from a 40 or 60 amp breaker.
Do me a favor and CAREFULLY take off the cover and take some pics. We're looking for a few things:
1. Wire size landed on the main breaker.
2. Any higher amperage 2 pole breakers feeding the "200 amp panel"
3. The main bonding jumper (or screw. this is the connection from neutral to the case)
4. Your grounding electrode conductor.
I'm mainly interested to see about this sub panel. If the 200 amp sub panel is fed by a 60 amp or less breaker, then fine. But if it is tapped off the mains with #8 on a 200 amp main? deal breaker.
Glad to hear at least the outlets test out. Do you have access to an amprobe? I'd like to see if you have any objectionable current on your ground.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
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spaceantelope
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goose really appreciate all the help. I gotta admit I'm not very familiar with a lot of this stuff (hence the reason for this post), but if you can bare with me that would be awesome. I'll do my best to get you what you need to look at.
I read the ground post and already am learning a ton of valuable information. this is only my second day as a member here and I love it already. I'll touch base soon. thanks again!
I read the ground post and already am learning a ton of valuable information. this is only my second day as a member here and I love it already. I'll touch base soon. thanks again!
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spaceantelope
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OK, these are a good start. Is there a way you could get a picture of the 200A panel guts? I'm not seeing any service conductors in the 100 as I suspected before. The ground question won't be answered in the 100 either since you're only supposed to bond in the main panel. If the 200 is the main as I now suspect, then you'll need to REMOVE what I think may be an additional bonding element in the 100A sub. See the screw just below where the green wire lands on the neutral bus? Hard to tell from the pic, but they may be a Neutral bonding screw.
The 200 A panel will reveal more clues. The only thing I see of concern (other than sloppy wiring) is the last breaker on the right. Is that 2 wires landed on it? Again, hard to say from the pic but it did look that way.
Let me know what you can dig up in the 200 A and maybe get me a close up of the neutral bus in the 100 and the 200A panel.
The 200 A panel will reveal more clues. The only thing I see of concern (other than sloppy wiring) is the last breaker on the right. Is that 2 wires landed on it? Again, hard to say from the pic but it did look that way.
Let me know what you can dig up in the 200 A and maybe get me a close up of the neutral bus in the 100 and the 200A panel.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
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spaceantelope
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goose,
apologies for the delay.
I had a friend over the house today that knows a little bit about this type of stuff. he explained to me that the 200a panel is the main, which feeds the 100a sub panel. All of my rooms upstairs are feed by this 100a panel, there is barely anything in the Main panel. whoever installed it was probably to lazy to switch everything over so they just sent a feed from the 100a breaker in the main over to to the sub.
my ground wire goes from the Main panel and runs outside to a grounding rod, so thats all good. (i have pics of this too if you need them)
i have a close up pic of the subpanels' neutral bus which ill post when i get out of work. i forgot to get the one of the main. the only things really connected to the Main are the feed to the sub, and feeds for the air handeler and compressor.
im thinking once i start getting this studio together ill put that room on a seperate circuit cause there are definitely some funky things going on with the voltages in some of the rooms. i get drops when the ac kicks on, and when my girlfriend is blow drying her hair the voltage in a neighboring room drops down to 105v..?
anyway let me know what you think. ill post the neutral bus shortly and if you need to see the one in the Main ill get that up for you as well. thank you again for the help.
ps. i also have pics of the main wire running into the house from the telephone pole, and the tranformer that its connected to. if that stuff means anything to you i can post them. talk to you soon.
apologies for the delay.
I had a friend over the house today that knows a little bit about this type of stuff. he explained to me that the 200a panel is the main, which feeds the 100a sub panel. All of my rooms upstairs are feed by this 100a panel, there is barely anything in the Main panel. whoever installed it was probably to lazy to switch everything over so they just sent a feed from the 100a breaker in the main over to to the sub.
my ground wire goes from the Main panel and runs outside to a grounding rod, so thats all good. (i have pics of this too if you need them)
i have a close up pic of the subpanels' neutral bus which ill post when i get out of work. i forgot to get the one of the main. the only things really connected to the Main are the feed to the sub, and feeds for the air handeler and compressor.
im thinking once i start getting this studio together ill put that room on a seperate circuit cause there are definitely some funky things going on with the voltages in some of the rooms. i get drops when the ac kicks on, and when my girlfriend is blow drying her hair the voltage in a neighboring room drops down to 105v..?
anyway let me know what you think. ill post the neutral bus shortly and if you need to see the one in the Main ill get that up for you as well. thank you again for the help.
ps. i also have pics of the main wire running into the house from the telephone pole, and the tranformer that its connected to. if that stuff means anything to you i can post them. talk to you soon.
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radiationroom
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105 volts? That's a pretty significant drop. The voltage will naturally sag with large loads imposed on the system. This is especially true with motors. The initial start up current will be 8 to 10 times higher than running current. This is why your lights dim when the AC kicks on.
I think whole house surge suppressors are a good idea. Be advised that they are one time protection only. If it works and does its job, its like a Secret Service agent taking a bullet. Replace it at once. It'll let you know when it's time.
I'll wait for your pics to comment any further on your neutral setup. I'd like to see if your neutral is bonded to the water pipe (if it's metallic). If a neutral isn't properly bonded to ground, it could account for some wandering voltage readings. Let's just wait and see.
I think whole house surge suppressors are a good idea. Be advised that they are one time protection only. If it works and does its job, its like a Secret Service agent taking a bullet. Replace it at once. It'll let you know when it's time.
I'll wait for your pics to comment any further on your neutral setup. I'd like to see if your neutral is bonded to the water pipe (if it's metallic). If a neutral isn't properly bonded to ground, it could account for some wandering voltage readings. Let's just wait and see.
I make a living as an electrician, not recording in the basement.
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