Help me get weird and/or clean THWACKING drums sounds

[BrontoSoreAss]

Let?s brainstorm some ways to make (my) drums sound weird/messed up... or just help me make mine sound good...

Here lays the crux of my situation: I am a hack

There is the problem.

Sometime next week I am going to be digging into a new recording project with my band ? we record live in a rehearsal space type room ? it?s not a great room ? it?s what we got, it?s what we have been able to find/afford/use without having neighbors call the cops. There is carpet on the floor and three of the four walls. On the upside the ceilings are actually fairly high. We?ve also built some bass traps for the corners and have thrown up some plywood to liven up the room a bit which made a fairly significant change for the better. Not recording live (with the occasional exception of vocals ? but this is song dependent) is not an option, we get better performances that way and in my mind that counts for way more than anything else. Also going to an actual studio is not an option. We will undoubtedly quiver in fear and performances will suffer as a result. We fail at associating/talking with/being near other people in real life (which is a bigger issue than any tape-op thread is going to fix...)

So the issue is that my drum sounds constantly make me upset. Guitar sounds, vocals sounds, bass sounds, every fucking other sound tends to make me happy, but drum sounds constantly make me upset. Not that they are particularly bad but they are generally pretty bland. For whatever reason (I?m sure there are many ? I will reiterate that I am a hack) they never sound great ? acceptable certainly, but never great. However, when I stand behind the kit well it is being played they sound fantastic. Big killing thwacks of thunder. Hurray! *Puts up a Mic*...*THUD THUD THUD*. WHERE ARE MY THWAKS OF THUNDER! Fuck me. Some transient vst thing is constantly saving my drums sounds. By saving I mean makes them something I can live with. Lame. Tom sounds in particular generally make me upset. Usually sounds pretty cool in the room mic BUT ? since we?re doing everything live there is generally too much of everything else for this to be the only drum sound. It is a lovely compliment which consistently makes everything sound way better but is insufficient by itself. My face is insufficient...fuck my drum sounds.

Things that have occurred to me:
I am a fucking hack
Maybe that awesome drum tone just does not translate at lower volumes (ie. reasonable listening volumes through speakers).
Maybe I am awesome and my gear is holding me back (I am quite confident this is not the case)
Maybe instead of trying to record awesome clean THWAKS I should just try to make stuff sounds fucked up in an awesome way. Even if I do figure out how to get some awesome clean THWACKS I still want to invest some time in this camp------- SO, what are some fantastic ways to make drums sound fucked up?
Distortion seems like an obvious choice. I will definitely be running shit through pedals and seeing what happens... I?ve got some weird stuff ? ring mod, bunch of circuit bent ones...
What else?

Things that seem worth mentioning:
Bleed in the drum mics are surprisingly low considering the situation ? bass/guitar are both audible in the overhead but are not overwhelming by any means. Mostly just some low end rumble and a bit of high end from the guitar.

AND the recording rig ? people seem to like having this information:
INTERFACE : echo audio fire 12
Preamps/Mixingboard: 16 Channel Mackie thing (VLZ thing)
-upgrading preamps has occurred to me but I am suspicious to what extent it will actually make a difference since I think my problem more than anything is likely my room (and me being a hack) ? and I would need a lot of them ? I suspect a new board is likely the most economical solution if that is the route I went down
Room Mic ? some apex measurement mic ? omni condenser thing ? usually smash it with compression ITB ? surprisingly this little guy usually makes me pretty happy in this application
Drum Overhead ? usually mono ? 4033 or a wooden little blondie
Kick ? some MXL LDC thing. That dual capsule one... ?bright? and ?vintage? sides I believe... ?vintage? side is a little unreliable (cuts out) so I am using the ?bright side?. Nothing spectacular but it does the job. Usually have it in a little tunnel which keeps it isolated from the bleed without having it right up to the kick (I?ve never been able to get a kick sound I am happy with, with the mic either inside or right up to the kick. This just could be because of this particular drum ?who
knows...NOT ME. I AM A HACK)
Snare Top: re10
Snare Bottom:SM7
Toms: SM57?s
And in case anyone cares thinks the rest of the setup is relevant vocals are usually running into a 644a or copperphone, guitar amp is usually mic?d up with a wooden little blondie and the bass cab has a 4033 on it.
I also have a beyerdynamic TG-X 50 Mk II which I really have not been using for much lately, some garbage cheapo (CAD maybe) unidirectional SDC?s, some terrible (not in a good way) dynamics that look like 58?s, some homemade carbon thing (which I have found to be pretty awesome on vocals in the right context), and the eggstatic harp mic thing.

So just to reiterate/clarify the point of this thread, I would like ideas to help make weird-ass/messed-up sounding drums and possibly some ideas for helping my get some nice clean THWACKS of thunder. Ideally I am looking for creative solutions rather than telling me to spend money on X. I could spend money... MAYBE <$1000 or something but fuck that. Creative solutions Please

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,
I think you need to spend some TIME getting a CLEAN recording of your drums, and THEN put effects on it afterwards or during the recording.
I recommend you spend at least two hours just moving mics around, doing 30 second test recordings, and the LISTENING to what got recorded.
Listen to all the mics you will use together, and adjust them according to how much comb filtering there is,phase issues,if any, etc, until you get a SOLID SOUND when the whole kit with all mics open sounds the best.
You may want to EQ a little here and there, but mainly, it's ALL ABOUT MIC POSITIONING.

I have a drummer friend of mine, who once wanted to do a "quick" recording of him on the kit. He came over to my studio, and asked me to spend AS LITTLE TIME on mic-ing up the kit as possible, to just "throw up some mics and see what happens."

I did, knowing full well the results would suck. And they did!

Then, about a month later, I had my friend again come over but this time it was a different drummer, a paying gig, and a different situation.
After this session, my friend asked me how I got the AMAZING drum sounds.
"Moving the mics into the right position". That and a little EQ from the console. It took me about one hour to go over the mic positions until they were right on.
The difference was not subtle at all.

Cheers

[A.David.MacKinnon]

If you're trying to get big drum sounds to translate at lower volumes you should do what the guitar players do - crank up the distortion. It sounds stupid but it really works.

There are 2 ways I do this.
When tracking I'll often use a heart or crotch mic. That would be a mic in the middle of the kit, right above the beater side rim of the kick, pointed at the drummers crotch. I like dynamic omnis for this but you can use almost anything. I run the output of the crotch mic into a distortion pedal (like an MXR distortion +) and then right to tape (or computer). No extra pre amp needed.
When I mix I'll sneak the distorted track in under the rest of the kit mix. You don't need too much to really get the effect. This tecnique isn't so great with cymbal heavy tunes but otherwise it works really well.

I used it on this tune and tracked in pretty much the same situation you describe above. Live off the floor (drums, bass, guitar and rhodes) with overdubbed vocals. The room was 12 x 18 with minor treatment - http://www.babelgum.com/3017445/fembots-long.html

The other way I do this is in mixing. I'll bus the drum mix (or parts of the drum mix) to a distortion pedal and mix it in under the rest of the track. A re-amp box and DI are useful here but I've done it without them and had good results too. You have a little more control with this approach but sometimes the vibe is better with the heart mic.



Another thing that can help dull sounding drums is parallel compression. I almost always run an Alesis Micro Limiter in parallel on the drum bus. Set it to kill and then sneak it in under the rest of the kit. It makes things sound explody. Again, a little goes a long way.

[BrontoSoreAss]

Hi Nick, thanks for your reply, taking the time for mic positioning is something I do make a real effort at/take quite a bit of time at - despite being a hack job its never a rush job - trying different mics, different poisitions, tons of minor tweaks, listening in mono for phase issues etc -I am confident that this is something I can still get much better at but it is right at the top of my agenda everytime we're trying to get drums sounds/stick a mic in front of anything right after - its second on the list after making sure it sounds awesome in the room. Toms in particular bum me out in this department, even aftering investing tons of time tweaking, trying out different mics I really struggle to get a sound I really like - What I find particularly irksome here is that it sounds awesome in the room but the awesomeness doesn't translate. It strikes me that this may be an issue of that particular drum tuning despite sounding good in the room not really translating at lower volumes (don't think its just a mix context issue since parts with only drums still don't sound how I imagine they could - but do sound way better than normal since I can really crank the room mic up). Snare is usually ok actually. But yes, your advice definetly does seem worth taking to heart and I will continue to keep it in mind.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

P.S - it goes without saying that you should spend all the time you need on set-up. Any time spent getting good sounds at the beginning will be time saved in mixing.

Pay real attention to the bleed from the other instruments into the drum mics. Guitar amps are pretty directional so pointing them away from the drums goes a long way (unless they're open backed cabs in which case you should baffle the back). Watch out for the bass though. It'll get into everything if it's too loud.
A little bleed into the drum mics can be a great thing (if it sounds good) but too much can be really difficult to fix. I wouldn't panic about it. Just take your time. Some effort spent on set-up and good mic placement will get you where you need to go.

[BrontoSoreAss]

Hey Dave, thanks for the suggestion I will definetly give the distorted heart/crotch mic idea a go!I'll have to play around with parrell compression as well. I used to do it a fair bit but since I've moved to reaper I've gotten some weird latency/phasing issues - I'll see if I can work that out though. Never tried it with a hardware compresson I should definetly give that a go - I'll see what kind of damage my symetrix 501 can do.

[BrontoSoreAss]

I am lucky that the guitar amp is crazy super directional. Almost no bleed gets in beside a bit of high end. Bass rumble is more of an issue but it is usually not too bad - gets into the overhead a bit more than anything but it usually does not interfere too much.

[Gregg Juke]

What Nick and Dave said so far. Plus (sorry, I was scanning; not sure if anyone mentioned it), the _source_ is super important. Make sure the drums sound really good, and that they will sound good in the mikes, not just when you're banging on them, drummer's-perspective...

Are they tuned well, for the type of sound you want? Are they drums that can even get the sound you want? Are the heads relatively new, or antique, pitted, and blistered? Are they the right heads for the job? What about the drummer? You, or somebody else? Can this person play to get the kind of sound you're hearing in your head? What is it about your sound (specifically) that you don't like?

BTW, what is the sound you're hearing in your head? Have you spent any time in pre-production? And by that, I don't mean the "demo after demo" phase, I mean pre-pre-production. Have you actually listened to a bunch of drum sounds on record, and figured out which ones you like/want to emulate and why? What is it about the sounds that you _do_ like that makes them "good" to you? If so, have you figured-out any way to get those sounds in your space?

As to recording "live," there are ways around it-- everyone plays at once, but you only track drums. Then bass, etc., etc. "Live feel," if you will, but not live. Requires gear, headphones, and routing that will allow for that approach, but might be worth a try. BTW, you'll have to figure-out the "playing in front of people" thing, if you're ever going to want o do that as a band...

If you do record live (really live), and you baffle everything as much as possible, you can really minimize the bleed. We've been tracking drums and bass together for this next record, and while I always insisted on separation, this method is working for our current rhythm section. We've even over-dubbed/re-tracked entire drum parts (different miking scheme, changed parts slightly, new bass part idea, etc.), and most folks that listen (well, no one really, other than us) will never know. But this means you need a kick-behind drummer that can lock in not only with a pre-recorded part, but with him/herself. If this is the case, the bleed really won't throw things off too much at all.

As to making whacked-out drum sounds, the skies the limit. Put them through any and all FX you've ever wanted to try, and a bunch that you never wanted to. Record them through a cardboard tube. Lay down a drum-machine track, and play-along with it. Use parallel compression, but also parallel FX (so you can go sick on some tracks and still have the source tracks intact). But this kind of adventurous stuff is pretty song/arrangement/genre-dependent, don't you think?

GJ

PS-- The room mike is REALLY important. You've got to find a way to make that work...

PPS-- Are those OH's as high as you can get them for your room/space?

[BrontoSoreAss]

Maybe I should also clarrify part of the reason I want fucked up sounds is because they are fun and can be awesome not just because I'm not particularly happy with the clean drum sounds I am getting

[Gregg Juke]

GATED. REVERB.

GJ

[BrontoSoreAss]

Hey Greg thanks for your reply!

Are they tuned well, for the type of sound you want? Are they drums that can even get the sound you want? Are the heads relatively new, or antique, pitted, and blistered? Are they the right heads for the job? What about the drummer? You, or somebody else? Can this person play to get the kind of sound you're hearing in your head? What is it about your sound (specifically) that you don't like?

So the drums do sounds really good in the room specifically when standing right behind the kit (so thats one of the places the overhead tends to end up, right side of the drummers head - I'm not the drummer), we always through fresh heads on before recording. What I'm really struggling with is getting the power/intensity of the tom hits to come accross. The sound I'm getting is adequate, but it really seems like that big rock drum energy that comes accross in the room is not translating.

BTW, what is the sound you're hearing in your head? Have you spent any time in pre-production? And by that, I don't mean the "demo after demo" phase, I mean pre-pre-production. Have you actually listened to a bunch of drum sounds on record, and figured out which ones you like/want to emulate and why? What is it about the sounds that you _do_ like that makes them "good" to you? If so, have you figured-out any way to get those sounds in your space?

At this point its been less about how they sound in my head and more about wanting to get the actual drum sound we have in the room to translate - would love our kit to sound like our kit when recorded, stressing the energy component here - the drums definetly retain their basic character recorded but its really the oooomphhhh sorta awesome getting the shit played out of it energy thats being lost.

As to recording "live," there are ways around it-- everyone plays at once, but you only track drums. Then bass, etc., etc. "Live feel," if you will, but not live. Requires gear, headphones, and routing that will allow for that approach, but might be worth a try. BTW, you'll have to figure-out the "playing in front of people" thing, if you're ever going to want o do that as a band...

Whenever we play with headphones performance tends to suffer. As far as playing in front of people we have zero problems at shows but in a recording situation we really suffer - part of it is certainly the stress of it being on the clock as well. Social anxiety is fucked up though - shitty, needs work, real live issue. Live shows are full of alchol fueled ruckus though.

If you do record live (really live), and you baffle everything as much as possible, you can really minimize the bleed. We've been tracking drums and bass together for this next record, and while I always insisted on separation, this method is working for our current rhythm section. We've even over-dubbed/re-tracked entire drum parts (different miking scheme, changed parts slightly, new bass part idea, etc.), and most folks that listen (well, no one really, other than us) will never know. But this means you need a kick-behind drummer that can lock in not only with a pre-recorded part, but with him/herself. If this is the case, the bleed really won't throw things off too much at all.

I like the idea of playing around with baffles - although overdubbing drum parts definetly won't happen - don't have that kind of drummer(s) (two other guys switch around) - most of our best takes are semi-improvised and end up solidfying how we are going to play the song after that point which also contributes to this.

s to making whacked-out drum sounds, the skies the limit. Put them through any and all FX you've ever wanted to try, and a bunch that you never wanted to. Record them through a cardboard tube. Lay down a drum-machine track, and play-along with it. Use parallel compression, but also parallel FX (so you can go sick on some tracks and still have the source tracks intact). But this kind of adventurous stuff is pretty song/arrangement/genre-dependent, don't you think?

All sound like fun suggestions - and yeah its is all definetly genre/song dependent. Just looking for some ideas to keep in mind going into too experiment with, not determinet solutions.

Thanks for all your suggestions!

[BrontoSoreAss]

Oops, Did not see the PS's of your post. The overhead mic could go significantly higher (like 6 higher feet at least - its already about 6 feet up) if we had a mic stand that could get up that high.

I'll trying playing around with the room mic more - I do actually really like the way its sounds - it tends to be the backbone of every mix, but it's usually not drum heavy enough to lean on heavily for drum sounds - I will definetly be trying out some different positions, see if I can find a place for it where it is more drum heavy while still retaining the general character of it which I like

[BrontoSoreAss]

meant to say that social anxiety is a real *life* issue rather than live.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

What I'm really struggling with is getting the power/intensity of the tom hits to come accross. The sound I'm getting is adequate, but it really seems like that big rock drum energy that comes accross in the room is not translating.

are you 100% sure the tom mics are in phase with the oh/room mics?

[BrontoSoreAss]

No, this is definetly a place where my hackery comes into play. It's something that I try to listen for and take quite a bit of time listening for - in mono flipping polarity and so forth - despite my efforts would not suprise me at all if this is still an issue.