cymbal bashers revisited

[permanent hearing damage]

thanks for the suggestions, folks. looks like editing is what i'm stuck with. i kinda figured.

it's mostly this damn A custom ride that he crashes on that was so close to the floor tom that is ruining things. i may just try the floor tom track first and see how that goes over.

admittedly, i bash my cymbals pretty heavily myself, but compared to the drums it's balanced and works just fine. i have been meaning to pick up some spare cymbals for myself for some variety, but it might be time to get some smaller ones for these kinda problem sessions.

brett, the 4033s are mostly for the cymbals on this record. they're barely in the mix at this point. the ribbons on overhead can do a great job of getting a balanced pic of the kit, but for most of the records i work on, the close mics are more the "modern" drum sound the band is after.

heavy hand, if you're in philly i'm wondering if we know eachother.

[HeavyHand]

i am indeed in philly. i used to be in a band called Big Terrible playing drums. i hang out at a studio called Aurum in Manayunk a lot too. currently in west philly but im out in a few days for East Falls. booo.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

you can over-play with the bead as well, but then you get a lot of nasty sibilant clickety-clicks, especially with plastic tips.

and that shit is THE WORST. there's not much you can do about those clicks after the fact either.

[JGriffin]

as I believe I've heard MSE say, "hit the drums like you mean it; hit the cymbals like you're sorry."

[T-rex]

The part in the mixerman diaries where he talks about the drummer hitting the toms like a pussy and attacking the cymbals like they had raped his mother; still cracks me up.

[Brett Siler]

A trick you can do with a compressor on overheads to get more drum sound and less cymbal is turn the Attack know all the way to the right so sharp transients jump right through. Next set the release for to the right so it holds the compression for a long time. Set the Threshold to compressing at least 4db or higher. I like the Ratio generally at 4:1 but set it to what sounds good of course, maybe high, maybe lower.

The initial attack of the drum hit comes through while the sustain of the cymbals gets reduced by the long Release time of the comp.

You can just insert the comp on the overheads or you could do this in parallel. Copy the overheads. compress them hard, and blend into the non compressed overheads. All sorts of fun shit. In your case maybe just compress the ribbon and blend in the condensers.

[gavintheaudioengineer]

They use the entire shoulder (side) of the stick, not the bead

that's not the problem, that's how i play, and it's fine. it's just a matter of hitting the cymbals too hard relative to the drums.

Or having the cymbals too low and too close to the tom mics.

It's amazing sometimes how moving the cymbals up (providing the drummer is happy to do so) can cut the bleed in the tom mics.

Also, considering what the tom mics can 'see' over the otherside of the tom can help eliminate bleed, as well as at the sides of the mic...

[Nick Sevilla]

i think the real issue is the cymbal bleed into the tom mics. they have condensers on em (Oktava MC012 on top, ATM450 on bottom) and they are faily heavily EQd.

Hi,

On this subject... I have both types of mics.

And I've done this type of technique, but maybe not the same as you have.

1.- Was the bottom mic really necessary? When you set both mics up, did you check for phase between the two mics?

2.- In my case, I usually buss the two miss into one recording channel, so phase and time alignment are extremely important. Usually I'll have to listen to each tom mic pair until the one recording channel sounds the right way, even before using any EQ. The statement you make that they are heavily EQd is a hint that something is not right in your 2 mic per tom setup. Next time spend 5-10 minutes on each tom, setting up your mics, before doing any EQing. You should be able to get a good sound.

3.- In the case of the OktaBa MC012, do you have the hypercardioid capsules? Get some, they can and will help with bleed from other drum kit parts like cymbals. The other thing, is that they now make a flexible elbow for them too, so placing the MC012s should be easier.

4.- And most important, on both the MC012 and the ATM450, did you engage the pads? This will help immensely with reducing not only overloads, but also bleed. It cleans up the sound a lot.

5.- WHen I have done the two mic per tom setup, the only EQ I really remember using is a lowpass filtering on both mics. Usually at 8kHz or thereabouts, to get rid of all the cymbal hash. You won;t be able to get rid of too much of the actual cymbal transients with EQ, this is done with proper mic positioning.

6.- Making foam collars for the mics. Once you have the best mic position, if one or both mics still get too much unwanted sound, you can experiment with some leftover acoustic foam or any foam really, of which you can make a small round or square piece with a hole in the middle of for the mic to go through. It works wonders.

Cheers

[Beat Poet]

Obviously it's best to hit the drums (and make sure they stay hit) and caress the cymbals, but I have found that for individual crash hits, it's best to hit them firmly and with conviction too.

[uqbar]

I have a whole set of lighter cymbals that I use for bashers. They aren't as loud, decay faster, etc. My cymbal issues are less about bleed into individual mics as issues with the room mics filling up with a wash. And like others I try to coach them into lightening up.