DAW minus the screen. Anyone working this way?

Dan Phelps · Post by **Dan Phelps** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:48 am

I think this is the appropriate forum for this question...

So, for the past 3-4 years I've been living a double-life.

In one life, I do a lot of writing/composing/programming for corporate clients. By necessity this part of my work has become more and more based in Logic. Originally I started by trying to record as many real things as possible...real drums, real amps, real piano, etc... but over time I embraced that it's just easier to do it all ITB. It's fast, it's easy to make changes (especially when the person who has hired you changes their mind...), and all the samples are very "professional" sounding. So, that's alright. It's work and it's about getting it done at the highest level of quality I can, making the client happy, and being as efficient and flexible as possible (for my own sanity).

In my other life, where I do "creative" music, meaning stuff that I get to do how I want, I've been using outboard gear + Radar 24 + Toft ATB. I really love working on Radar...the work flow is the antidote to what I do in corporate world. Wether I'm recording bands, producing some one else's record, or experimenting with my own stuff, this is my favorite way to work. Fewer screens and menus. It's easier for me to focus, listen to the sounds and music, and generally disappear into the creative process.

For the past year I haven't had a space to have the Radar + Toft rig setup. I'm essentially doing the corporate stuff in an office setting that's not condusive to recording actual sounds. Additionally, I'm moving my family into a house where I'll be able to sort of take over a room to function as a combo work space/music room/listening room/hang space/guest room area.

So, I'm imagining having my monitors permanently set up in the room (where we'll also listen to records) and having a workstation that I can wheel into mix position, but easily wheel it out of the way when I'm not working. I'm trying to think of a practical, compact way of working in this space that satisfies my two different musical lives. Logic world and recording real things world.

So...my real question is...it anyone out there using their DAW in such a way that they can function without using the screen most of the time? Essentially using Pro Tools or Logic or whatever as a tape machine? If so, what methods have you figured out? Do you use a control surface?

I guess I'm willing to fully embrace DAW world (because it's so damn 'practical') for all things musical if I can figure out how to make it function like my Radar + Toft world...but because I do so much corporate work on the computer, it's important to me that my creative endeavors not feel like I'm doing the musical equivalent of working on a Excel spreadsheet.

All insight, criticism, ideas, and suggestions are welcome!

Thanks,
Dan

JGriffin · Post by **JGriffin** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:19 pm

I've heard that ProTools sales/support folks go through training sessions on the various control surfaces where they have to use the software entirely via the control surface, without a computer monitor. So it can be done...

austin · Post by **austin** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:21 pm

When I work in Pro Tools, I love listening to playbacks without looking at the screen. It's shocking how much easier it is for me to judge performances when I'm not "looking at" them. The brain can play some weird tricks.

I can't imagine how I would function without a screen for most other parts of the process, though.

Jeff White · Post by **Jeff White** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:18 pm

I shut down the screens a whole lot for critical listening. Works wonders.

Jeff

Tragabigzanda · Post by **Tragabigzanda** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:33 pm

I worked on a Radar system for a few years before moving on to both Logic and PT. I'd never consider either of those programs to be anything like Radar with regard to stability, and if I were in a situation where working without a screen were somehow necessary, Radar is the only system I'd feel comfortable trying it on.

Dan Phelps · Post by **Dan Phelps** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:09 pm

So it seems like the answer right now might be some combo of control surface (that features faders and transport controls) and self-discipline about turnin the screen off.

Dan Phelps · Post by **Dan Phelps** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:11 pm

Tragibigzanda wrote:If I were in a situation where working without a screen were somehow necessary, Radar is the only system I'd feel comfortable trying it on.

Yeah...this is what I suspect will be the reality of the situation.

T-rex · Post by **T-rex** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:36 pm

I think it would be really tough for what you are doing as far as composing with virtual instruments etc. But with that said, a control surface with a scribble strip will work wonders. I mix 100% OTB whenever I can and after I got everything set up in Cubase a lot of times I would just turn off the tv completely and mix. I had an alphatrack so if I needed to tweak something in Cubase, I could just do it with that and with the scribble strip I knew exactly what track I was working on.

Dan Phelps · Post by **Dan Phelps** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:26 pm

T-rex wrote:I think it would be really tough for what you are doing as far as composing with virtual instruments etc. But with that said, a control surface with a scribble strip will work wonders. I mix 100% OTB whenever I can and after I got everything set up in Cubase a lot of times I would just turn off the tv completely and mix. I had an alphatrack so if I needed to tweak something in Cubase, I could just do it with that and with the scribble strip I knew exactly what track I was working on.

Oh man...I'm only doing lots of VSTi work in my corporate stuff...so I'd have a screen for that. I just mean that when I am NOT doing that and I'm disappearing into my creative realm, I want there to be very little screen time...more like a tape machine or the radar. Which maybe I will keep using and deal with space the Toft requires. Just exploring my options for (sometimes) screen free DAW work.

T-rex · Post by **T-rex** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:09 am

Well let me tell you what I just did and maybe that will help.

I just recently went through the same thing. I have been using Cubase pretty much as a Radar (albeit a much less good sounding one) for the last several years. I track to it, edit with it and use a cool effect here or there but for the most part I would mix 100% through my ghost and outboard gear. I loved it. However, I have a growing family and for the amount of paying work I do (versus my own stuff) I felt like I had too much gear taking up too much space. So I sold my board and a bunch of outboard gear, bought a used D-box and a UAD-2 card. I even built a sweet little mastering style desk. My footprint shrunk and I can still do everything I need to do in the box because I started there and made a bunch of good albums 100% ITB.

It sucked. I hated it. Sonically I did a few things with the new set up and it sounded great, not as good as I could have done on my old setup, but pretty damn good. However, and I have posted about this tons of times; the process was totally frustrating. All of the things I have to do ITB, really takes me out of the zone for working on music. Mainly because I have been mouseless for so long. Within four months I had already bought another console and will be going back OTB for good. Luckily, I am actually going to come out ahead on the deal money wise, since I got such a good deal on the console.

So the point of my rambling is this; my advice from my own experience would be, for your own personal stuff work the way you enjoy working as long as you can. If you love working with the Toft and the Radar stick with it. The benefits far outweigh the space considerations in my mind.

Dan Phelps · Post by **Dan Phelps** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:54 pm

T-rex wrote:Well let me tell you what I just did and maybe that will help.

I just recently went through the same thing. I have been using Cubase pretty much as a Radar (albeit a much less good sounding one) for the last several years. I track to it, edit with it and use a cool effect here or there but for the most part I would mix 100% through my ghost and outboard gear. I loved it. However, I have a growing family and for the amount of paying work I do (versus my own stuff) I felt like I had too much gear taking up too much space. So I sold my board and a bunch of outboard gear, bought a used D-box and a UAD-2 card. I even built a sweet little mastering style desk. My footprint shrunk and I can still do everything I need to do in the box because I started there and made a bunch of good albums 100% ITB.

It sucked. I hated it. Sonically I did a few things with the new set up and it sounded great, not as good as I could have done on my old setup, but pretty damn good. However, and I have posted about this tons of times; the process was totally frustrating. All of the things I have to do ITB, really takes me out of the zone for working on music. Mainly because I have been mouseless for so long. Within four months I had already bought another console and will be going back OTB for good. Luckily, I am actually going to come out ahead on the deal money wise, since I got such a good deal on t

So the point of my rambling is this; my advice from my own experience would be, for your own personal stuff work the way you enjoy working as long as you can. If you love working with the Toft and the Radar stick with it. The benefits far outweigh the space considerations in my mind.

Very helpful post. Thank you!

I think this is the conclusion I am coming to...and you helped me get a little closer.

Mane1234 · Post by **Mane1234** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:01 pm

Mixing ITB without the screen was the main reason I got the Digi 002 Control Mixer thing or whatever it's called instead of the rackmount version. It took me a while to get used to scrolling through subscreens but at least it was hands on and I didn't have to use a mouse all the time. But my favorite set up was just running out of the Digi into a real board and using outboard gear and patchbay. The board died so no more of that for now and I haven't used PT for a long time now anyways.

Dan Phelps · Post by **Dan Phelps** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:41 am

So...the moral of the story is that consoles rule for tactile interface.

brew · Post by **brew** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:55 am

Good thoughts here. I agree--you probably can't do this practically without some kind of control surface. Maybe FaderPort is all you need. If you get something larger, you're back to Toft-like real-estate (but without all the cabling).

Here's another thought--consider switching to a simpler DAW that is not so screen intensive. Since you are RADAR now, I assume you're not so married to Pro Tools, etc.

Nuendo Live or SSL Live Recorder software seem like good candidates. They're designed for stop/start broadcast-style recording/backup and simplicity.

Or what about one of the many other still-in-existence Tascam/Roland/Fostex/Zoom dedicated multitrackers? Why use a computer at all? As long as you have a nice A/D, there's no quality difference with Radar. JoeCo might be a good option too.

plurgid · Post by **plurgid** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:09 am

Dan Phelps wrote:In one life, I do a lot of writing/composing/programming for corporate clients. By necessity this part of my work has become more and more based in Logic.

I know this is a complete thread derail, and probably uncool of me to ask this but as a complete outsider to the music "business" (beyond crappy bar gigs with my band) ... this sounds nothing short of amazing ..... what? You have an *office job* using *logic* to *make music for a living*???

what sort of work is this, and how does one get into it?

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DAW minus the screen. Anyone working this way?

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