Is offering to work for free treading on pro's toes?

James B · Post by **James B** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:04 am

As a student and aspiring engineer without a body of work to attract anyone I'm considering putting up some posters in local practice spaces and music shops offering my services for free in the form of studio time at the university or a portable set up in their rehearsal room/ living room/ wherever. My main concern right now is to get out there doing stuff, I'm in a city where I don't know many musicians and this seems like a good way to get started.

If you record for a living and someone did this in your area would you be pissed off? I'm not really offering the same level of service so I don't think I'd be directly stealing anyone's clients, but would it be frowned upon?

If this is uncool, what would be a better way to go about it? Also, is there a better way to say "I'll record you for free unless you really suck?"

Thanks.

fossiltooth · Post by **fossiltooth** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:39 pm

If you're recording new hobbyist bands who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford the experience, I say it's A-OK.

But keep in mind: if you're working for free for bands who could and should pay for professional work -- bands who stand to make money off of the recordings, then you're not just hurting established pros. You're working against the solvency of the very profession you hope to enter.

Honestly, if it was me, I'd probably charge a bit. I mean, I did when I was in college. Even if it's $10/hr, and then free overtime when the project takes way longer than everyone expected (At this stage, it definitely will. Trust me.)

Alternately, you could do the first song for free, and then charge a lower-than-average rate after that. That's what Dave Fridmann did when he got started with The Flaming Lips. He was in college at the time, too.

Recording is fun. So is teaching and writing and sales and making furniture and raising chickens if you have a propensity for any one of those things. But it's still work. So value yourself.

Also: remember that non-profits are a great place to work for free. Maybe there are some volunteer radio stations or performances spaces or churches in your area? Check 'em out! Maybe there are fellow students in your class that you could record? Those are often the best places to start.

James B · Post by **James B** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:08 pm

I was really just thinking of hobbyists or kids who couldn't really afford to pay anyone. I wouldn't be comfortable doing it for free if it was a band who was looking to (or could reasonably expect to) make money from the finished product.

I was thinking that the bands would probably just be looking for a track or two for their SoundCloud page. I probably wouldn't do multiple sessions with the same band for free but getting someone to pay for something they've previously been given at no cost could be tricky.

Having read various posts on here and elsewhere I definitely see why charging even a small amount makes a difference when it comes to attitudes and the working relationship but with no previous work to show I think I'd struggle to get anyone in at first.

I've got a few live session recordings booked in for a local non-profit radio station so that's a good start, but quite a different experience to a multitracked project.

Strange you should mention Dave Fridmann, by the way, I was just listening to the new Tame Impala album and thinking how great his stuff is.

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:35 pm

You really should charge *something*. Even if it's just barter, or $5 an hour. Without skin in the game you will get abused by shmucks. I can almost guarantee it. Does this "hobbyist" have a guitar or other instrument? Then they have money to put towards their hobby. You could say "sliding scale" on your poster and then work out something. But people in this culture hardly ever place much value on things that don't cost money. $5-10/hr will get you a client who's at least practiced a couple times and has some idea what they'd like to see come out of the process. You don't want to get anywhere near the opposite of that.

To wit: http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=81419

GlowSounds · Post by **GlowSounds** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:57 pm

Adding to what others have rightfully said- keep in mind that there's a world of difference between doing something for free, and charging what may seem like a ridiculously low fee like $5/hr.

I don't record for a living, but I do play for a living (if you can call it that...) As others can attest- it's the same in the performing world. I play alot of gigs in art spaces, that aren't commercial music, and no one stands to make any real money. However, I still insist on walking out of there with at least $30 from the door. Sometimes it's a labor of love but you still need to get something for it. In so many ways, it just keeps everyone honest.

...and with that $30 you can go to the bar for half an hour and party like it's 1999.

Gregg Juke · Post by **Gregg Juke** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:18 pm

Yes! What everybody said above. ^^^^^^^^

One other idea that is more cautious for both you and all of us/the profession-- Instead of putting-up flyers and letting them come to you, "come one, come all" style, why not go out and find the band or bands that you want to work with? It would accomplish the same thing, save you time/auditioning/pre-production, and keep unsightly "free recording" flyers out of your town. Just a thought...

GJ

Nick Sevilla · Post by **Nick Sevilla** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:03 am

Charge something, or barter for work, or anything which will tie down a value to your work. You will learn more if under the gun, and correct your mistakes better as well.

Otherwise, it is not worth anything to the person you are working for.

Cultivate a culture of value.

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:32 am

I woke up wondering if you could afford to pay some musicians for a few hours. Find a really tight jazz trio, or rock cover band and pay them $50 each (each musician, not the band) to let you record 4 standards or something. You're practically guaranteed something for your reel and you'll start your career off on a better foot than scraping by with the dregs of musical humanity. I really wonder if engineers that do this would make more $$$ in their first year than all the record their friends for free crowd.

Reference: all the "fuck me, it is the source" type threads on this forum.

dfuruta · Post by **dfuruta** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:23 am

If you're not comfortable charging, Nick Sevilla's comment about bartering is something to think about...I normally charge $ for recording, but I'll trade recording time for someone fixing my bike, or playing drums for my own projects, or whatever. If you're just starting out, maybe bartering is more palatable?

chris harris · Post by **chris harris** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Go make some friends and then record THEM for free.... Trust me, making friends is a lot easier than starting up a successful recording business.

kslight · Post by **kslight** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:04 pm

$5-10/hr will get you a client who's at least practiced a couple times and has some idea what they'd like to see come out of the process.

This and rather than make posters, I think you'll get better results by going to shows with a card and approaching bands that you like (and/or seem tight enough to not be a huge pain in the studio!). The kind of sleaze you get by offering your services for free in public will probably overwhelm, and you'll probably end up with a band you don't gel with and won't ever turn into a good connection anyway. Even when I record my friends, we negotiate how I get paid up front so there's no confusion/bad blood, and I'd certainly rather give them my time than most others if I could afford to.

And uh, probably every band knows someone that will record for free. By attaching a dollar value to your time you automatically create a sense of value (assuming you can back it up!). Its the whole Apple logic versus other PC makers. Apple designs a product and just makes up some dollar value for it and that's what it is. PC makers design for a price point and then race each other to the bottom to make a sale. There's always someone cheaper, so being the cheap guy I think hardly ever pans out in your favor.

Not that I think you'll have any luck asking $75/hour or anything, but you'll certainly achieve more worth at $5/hour than at nothing.

James B · Post by **James B** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:I woke up wondering if you could afford to pay some musicians for a few hours. Find a really tight jazz trio, or rock cover band and pay them $50 each (each musician, not the band) to let you record 4 standards or something. You're practically guaranteed something for your reel and you'll start your career off on a better foot than scraping by with the dregs of musical humanity. I really wonder if engineers that do this would make more $$$ in their first year than all the record their friends for free crowd.

Reference: all the "fuck me, it is the source" type threads on this forum.

This is definitely an interesting idea, something to think about.

I'm not sure if it's a confidence issue that's making me think that advertising a paid service would be unsuccessful.

I think what would serve me best right now would be to get back in to playing music myself again and recording my own band, it's a shame that I seem to know fewer and fewer musicians in this city. I guess that's where the "make some friends" comment comes in...

Scodiddly · Post by **Scodiddly** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:58 am

Snarl 12/8 wrote:I woke up wondering if you could afford to pay some musicians for a few hours. Find a really tight jazz trio, or rock cover band and pay them $50 each (each musician, not the band) to let you record 4 standards or something. You're practically guaranteed something for your reel and you'll start your career off on a better foot than scraping by with the dregs of musical humanity. I really wonder if engineers that do this would make more $$$ in their first year than all the record their friends for free crowd.

Reference: all the "fuck me, it is the source" type threads on this forum.

Great idea.

What I'd do is find the band you want to record, instead of letting cheap idiots find you. Make it a specific deal - "I want to spend one day on a recording project for school, and are you interested?". Set the time limit ahead of time, and tell *them* what the deal will be. "I've got 4 hours booked for mixdown, and I'll give you a copy of whatever I end up with."

Gentleman Jim · Post by **Gentleman Jim** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:45 pm

Heed every single bit of advice you've received here.

You show me somebody who agreed to do some work for free "to build their chops," and I'll show you somebody who's later annoyed by the expectations the non-paying client has.

If you really can't get past the idea of doing something for free, at least put a structure on it. Give them 10 free hours, then $5 or $10 an hour after that.

I've done free stuff for friends before, and I'm about to do it again, but my stipulation in those situations is that I have full artistic control over the mixes. If you have opinions, pull out the checkbook. For $50 an hour I'll turn up the snare drum, turn down the vocals, whatever you want. But for free I'll make all the decisions.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:39 am

I haven?t sen a bad piece of advice in this post yet.

Definitely free ain?t free.
Make a friend, offer to record, you?re the driver and advice from client costs YOU money, so, they must pay to have their way.

If you?re going the way of starting a business just out of school, that?s not smart.
If you?re worried about getting in a pro?s way, GO GET RIGHT IN THEIR WAY and learn something new by being an intern in THEIR SHOP, save yourself a TON of hassle and get a LOT of knowledge along the way.
If you?re in a smaller town, you?ll get what you need to know about local clients even if your established pro isn?t so recording savvy.
If the pro is very recording savvy you get ton?s of experience.
Both without the expense of losing at opening your own shop.
Rent,
Utilities,
Maintenance,
Supplies,
Equipment,
office supplies,
legal,
accounting,
licenses, and then you have to turn a profit or you are in a pro?s way.
And if you?re in a small town and your local pro isn?t thinking of retiring, the market may already be saturated. If it is you?ll only be driving the price to ?unsustaiinable? for both businesses.
Who wants to get known for doing that, other than walmart?

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Is offering to work for free treading on pro's toes?

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