How much gain do your mics need?

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dfuruta
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How much gain do your mics need?

Post by dfuruta » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:34 am

It seems like the norm for mic preamps, these days, is to have 70dB+ gain available. I was thinking about this, and realized that I've never used more than 55dB or so. Of course, I mostly record metal and loud rock, not harpsichord recitals with ribbon mics.

Do you find that you often use the highest gain settings on your preamps? What's the maximum gain that you routinely end up needing? Have you ever required 70dB or more?

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:12 am

Which mike?

The ribbons definitely need the gain; the rest, not so much.

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Post by telepathy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:38 am

Harpsichords are mostly loud as hell.

Yes, the big ribbons need upwards of 70/80db of gain sometimes, depending on the application.
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Post by dfuruta » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:04 am

That's what people *say*, but I've never needed nearly that much with my ribbons (AEA R84s and various from Cascade). In what sort of applications have you found yourself using 70dB gain?

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Post by Gregg Juke » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:51 am

At least 60 with a ShinyBox 46MX. Perhaps there has been some "gain-creep" over the last few years, but I'd rather have more available than not enough...

GJ

PS-- Probably depends on the source, too? I only record vocals (or mostly; I'm probably going to try some horns on an upcoming Jazz project) with my ribbon, but maybe you don't need as much gain with a loud/high spl/naturally compressed source like electric guitar?

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Post by dfuruta » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:24 pm

I guess the old Neve pres and some others had ridiculous amounts of gain available, too.

So, a follow up question?would you find it difficult if you had only mic amps with 60dB max gain?

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Post by telepathy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:26 pm

yeah, totally not an issue in front of a raging guitar cab, or as drum overheads (mostly), but suddenly a BIG DEAL when you're using Coles ribbons in Blumlein in front of a string section, or the like. I also have a pair of old Shure 315 small ribbons that sound great on almost everything but eat preamp gain three meals a day with a snack or two in between....

this is another time to mention how much of a lifesaver the Cloudlifters have been for me in those kind of situations. Especially incredible with weirdo dynamics: to use my Altec 633 "salt shaker" on anything except snare drum was always an exercise in balancing gain stages and discovering exactly how noisy certain preamps could be ... until the Cloudlifter. now I can use that mic on acoustic guitar or even vocals in the right situation without having to crank every preamp far past the point of no return.
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Post by telepathy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:33 pm

oh yeah, and reverb chambers. ribbons or SM57's or EV 635a's in the chamber, you need all the gain you can get.
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Post by drumsound » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:57 pm

How long is a piece of string?

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Post by eh91311 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:41 pm

I have a pair of stock Apex 205 ribbon mics that I recently tried as overheads on my loud stoner-rock band drummer's kit; with my Presonus Digimax LT (54db max mic pre gain) the drums sounded small and lifeless, lacking dynamics. I know something's wrong when stock Digi 002R mic pre's sounded better with the Apex ribbons than the Digimax did, and we all know 002R pre's are basically crap. Even inexpensive ribbon mics need preamps with lots of gain to sound good.

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Post by vxboogie » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:44 am

drumsound wrote:How long is a piece of string?
Made me LOL! :D
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Post by dfuruta » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:19 am

eh91311 wrote:I have a pair of stock Apex 205 ribbon mics that I recently tried as overheads on my loud stoner-rock band drummer's kit; with my Presonus Digimax LT (54db max mic pre gain) the drums sounded small and lifeless, lacking dynamics. I know something's wrong when stock Digi 002R mic pre's sounded better with the Apex ribbons than the Digimax did, and we all know 002R pre's are basically crap. Even inexpensive ribbon mics need preamps with lots of gain to sound good.
Drums sounding lifeless and lacking dynamics wouldn't have anything to do with gain, would it? Dynamics should be more or less the same at any gain level, unless your preamps are actually compressors in disguise...
drumsound wrote:How long is a piece of string?
:D Yeah, I know. But, I really am curious to hear people's experiences.

I mean, I've recorded solo strings and quiet vocals with ribbons and low-output dynamics, and I haven't needed so much gain. Certainly not more than 50 something dB. So, I was just wondering what some situations were in which people needed to really crank it.

I've been starting to look at schematics for various pres, and trying to read up on the design decisions. It seems not uncommon for preamps to be spec'd for around 60dB max?for example, thd and noise specs for the common THAT 1512 chip are only given up to 60dB. API 512s are spec'd at 65dB max gain, and many of the vintage tube mic amps that people seem to love so much (telefunken v72, for example) have 50something or fewer dBs of gain.

Some preamps, of course, have much higher available gain. So, I was just wondering if people actually find themselves using the highest settings, or if it's largely for marketing reasons. Seems like y'all do sometimes use your preamps all the way up!

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Post by vvv » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:11 pm

FWIW, I find myself using the full 60dB on my ISA1 in two instances, first for the sound of it (it's the only pre I crank up to 11 for the sound of it), and second for room mic's on guitar amps.

I've done the same with a Summit 2BA-221's 75dB with room mic's, (and along with the ISA1 and a Eureka now I think of it) ...


... wait for it, ...


... on ribbons.

Mine are Chinese ribbons, and I tend to like 'em 3' or so offa small amps that are not dimed. When I use dynamics (the ubiquitous 635a, mebbe a AT802 or SM63L - I like omni room mic's - or a RE10) for the room, same thing.
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Post by eh91311 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:44 pm

dfuruta wrote:
eh91311 wrote:I have a pair of stock Apex 205 ribbon mics that I recently tried as overheads on my loud stoner-rock band drummer's kit; with my Presonus Digimax LT (54db max mic pre gain) the drums sounded small and lifeless, lacking dynamics. I know something's wrong when stock Digi 002R mic pre's sounded better with the Apex ribbons than the Digimax did, and we all know 002R pre's are basically crap. Even inexpensive ribbon mics need preamps with lots of gain to sound good.
Drums sounding lifeless and lacking dynamics wouldn't have anything to do with gain, would it? Dynamics should be more or less the same at any gain level, unless your preamps are actually compressors in disguise...
drumsound wrote:How long is a piece of string?
:D Yeah, I know. But, I really am curious to hear people's experiences.

I mean, I've recorded solo strings and quiet vocals with ribbons and low-output dynamics, and I haven't needed so much gain. Certainly not more than 50 something dB. So, I was just wondering what some situations were in which people needed to really crank it.

I've been starting to look at schematics for various pres, and trying to read up on the design decisions. It seems not uncommon for preamps to be spec'd for around 60dB max?for example, thd and noise specs for the common THAT 1512 chip are only given up to 60dB. API 512s are spec'd at 65dB max gain, and many of the vintage tube mic amps that people seem to love so much (telefunken v72, for example) have 50something or fewer dBs of gain.

Some preamps, of course, have much higher available gain. So, I was just wondering if people actually find themselves using the highest settings, or if it's largely for marketing reasons. Seems like y'all do sometimes use your preamps all the way up!
Maybe I should have explained it better. The LT pres had very little headroom left, showed a lot of clipping when using the Apex 205's. I substituted a pair of Oktava MK012's and the LT pres were just fine. Ribbon mics need lots of clean gain.

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Post by KennyLusk » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:57 pm

At the risk of sounding stupid: most folks have a compressor in the signal chain even if they're not compressing. If you need additional gain, why not bump the makeup gain on the comp before you hit your console or DAW?

And speaking of reverb chambers, I never understood the massive gain needs for mics in a reverb chamber when the PA speakers in there are so pumped, and I've seen it done in some really sweet chambers. Never understood it.

Another thing about the "need" for so much gain is I've heard some fella's complain about the self-noise of AT mics (for example) and my eyes just flutter and I think "WTF?...are you serious?", but then find out they've got their gain maxed at +60dB or +65dB. Holy crap, what would you expect at those levels?

Again though, maybe I'm stupid.
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