Jazz tenor player wants to sound "warmer and rounder&qu

[NewAndImprov]

I'm working with a great post-Coltrane jazz tenor sax player. He gets a terrific tone, to my ears at least, but never seems satisfied with his recorded sound. In the last round of mix revisions, he asked to make his horn sound "warmer and rounder." In the past, when I've pushed him to clarify his terms, it hasn't really gotten anywhere, it usually results in a lot of trial and error to find the tone he's looking for.

The setting is tenor/trumpet/upright bass/drums, no piano, lots of space in the ensemble. Tenor was recorded with a U87 and a Shinybox 46, the Shinybox on the lower part of the horn, U87 directly in front. To me, the tenor sounds great!

I have my own ideas about how to interpret this request, but before I share those, I wanted to throw it out to the group to see if there maybe some approaches that I am not thinking of. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[kslight]

As a former sax player, I tend to not associate tenor sax with "warm and round", in the same way I don't approach trumpet like that...I tend to reserve that with the deeper voiced saxes...the tenor is really more of a "lead" instrument that should cut. There are definitely things that could be done at the instrument level to achieve different tones...reeds, mouthpieces...different tenor entirely...hopefully he knows that though.

I'd maybe try some more distant miking, and maybe just one ribbon mic pointing between the body and the bell (lots of sound coming from the body itself, not just the bell).

Maybe though you should get him to point out some recordings of tenors that he thinks of as "warm and round," something tells me this may just be a communication thing...

[Brett Siler]

I don't have access to a ton of high end gear like u87's but here is what i have made work. I like a dark ribbon mic that doesn't have a ton of high end info going on for a "warmer rounder" sound. The MXL R40 is great for this Here is a sample. So is the Oktava ML52, or a Cascade Fathead. Of course with the low end ribbons make sure they are set up right and they should work fine. I also really like the EV20 for sax. It sounds nice and full. It can get deep low end to high squealing stuff.

Or you could just put a low pass filter on whatever mic you used and it will sound "warmer and rounder".

[zorf]

have him change the reed and or mouthpiece.

[Nick Sevilla]

"warmer and rounder"= less top end, more low end.

You need to find the FUNDAMENTAL note of the key being played,

and empasize an octave LOWER than his lowest note.

See if that helps.

[losthighway]

Funny I was just mixing something that my friend played bari on and was thinking it needed to sound warmer and rounder. I find that playing into a fairly neutral mic the reed family tends to often sound clear, articulate, and a little too dry and bright when I record. I usually use some tube compression and some gentle eq with really wide bells notching down the upper frequencies a bit and boosting somewhere in the low mids depending on which horn it is. Sometimes a pinch of classy reverb (read:not smooth-jazz 80's reverb).

[Snarl 12/8]

Turn up the heat and feed him lots of doughnuts.

[jhharvest]

I think it's probably his own bias: he hears the instrument from the back so it sounds "warmer and rounder" to him than the recordings. I'd use dynamic mics and cheap tube amps that mush the bottom. Or you could try miking him from behind for a laugh...

[Gregg Juke]

>>>>In the past, when I've pushed him to clarify his terms, it hasn't really gotten anywhere, it usually results in a lot of trial and error to find the tone he's looking for.<<<<

I'd stop everything right there and go back and do some pre-production. Ask him to bring in five albums or songs from five different players that he considers "warm & round." You may be able to glean a lot just by listening and researching how each recording was made, but I'll wager there are a lot of different tones that would be included in the line-up, and a lot of those sounds are dependent on the players and the horns, not the microphones. Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Art Pepper, Jim Pepper, and King Curtis all have very different and identifiable tones and playing styles. He may need to be a lot more "warmer and rounder" than you do, to get the sound he's after...

GJ

[dfuruta]

Turn up the heat and feed him lots of doughnuts.

This is the best answer.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

to every question ever.

i would try rolling out some upper mids, 3-5k ish. perhaps also boost a bit around 200.

[NewAndImprov]

Turn up the heat and feed him lots of doughnuts.

This is the best answer.

Love it!

Hey, thanks for all the input. I should have mentioned that re-tracking is not an option at this point, though I'll take some of the suggestions into our future sessions. We actually did some pretty extensive pre-production, we listened and critiqued the sound on his previous albums and some other sources, a lot of Coltrane and Rollins. We also did a day of mic shoot-outs, where we tested all the mics at the studio, from my collection, and a few I was able to borrow, which is how we came up with the U87/Shinybox combo. I personally preferred the tube mics we tested (a Neumann M149 and a Mojave), but he liked the U87 better. Now I think that choice is the source of the lack of warmth and rotundity.

I should emphasize that we agree that the tracked sound is very good, it's just that I hear it as being closer to the goal than he does. The EQ suggestions floated here are pretty much what I was thinking, but the idea of bumping the octave below his fundamental sounds intriguing. I'm s[ending the day remixing this, I'll see what I come up with.

[The Real MC]

"Warmer and rounder" may mean a different horn. Saxophones are like guitars, switch to a different one and the sound changes. I worked with a sax player who wasn't happy with his tone, so he splurged $$$ for another horn and his tone got much better.

There are some things that processing can't fix.

[Gregg Juke]

"What is the air-speed/velocity of a European Swallow travelling in an easterly direction from Sussex to Kent?"

"Turn up the heat and feed him lots of doughnuts."

Like that? Is that how I'd do it?

"Honey, would you like to take out the garbage please?"
"Turn up the heat and feed him lots of doughnuts."

I sure hope this works.

GJ

[MoreSpaceEcho]

*feels cold and hungry, wonders what to do*