Pre-amp Pads

[vvv]

So I was reading where someone mentioned that using the pad on the Summit 2BA-221 while mic'ing allowed him to get a different - and he thought better - sound than without.

So I tried engaging same on my Summit, and on a UA710. I'm not very sure of a huge difference in that I was recording acoustic guitar, what is somewhat unusual for me, but it seems I can get to the distortion point quicker, which is nice on these two pre's.

Anyone else utilize pre-amp pads to vary the sound?

And to the extent a pre does not come with one, does anyone use an outboard pad after the mic?

[dfuruta]

And to the extent a pre does not come with one, does anyone use an outboard pad after the mic?

I do this all the time, but it's generally to keep high-output mics on loud sources from clipping the pre.

[kslight]

I use it when needed, but especially on the API 3124 paired with drum overheads....almost always SDCs and LDCs are too hot going in.

[cgarges]

I'm not very sure of a huge difference in that I was recording acoustic guitar, what is somewhat unusual for me, but it seems I can get to the distortion point quicker, which is nice on these two pre's.

Wait, are you talking about putting the pad in front of the preamp and recording acoustic guitar and getting more distortion out of the Summit? Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't make any sense.

I've got a pile of variable pads and use them all the time when a source is too much for the preamp. Sometimes putting one of those in-line pads can make more of a difference in the intensity of the character of the preamp (by nature of having to rely on the preamp for more gain and therefore, more of the preamp's sonic "signature"), but they're just plain useful in the situation that dfurta described.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[vvv]

No, I mean "using the pad on the Summit 2BA-221" - it and the 710 have a built-in pad.

And I'm actually asking about using the pad to "vary the sound".

Sorry I was unclear.

In my application, then, by engaging the built-in pads on those pre's, I can get more of the tube (or S/S) "drive' (both pre's have separate S/S and tube gain knobs, with the UA also having a following "level" knob.)

And so my question(s) was/were, does anyone do this for the sound of it, and does anyone use a outboard, in-line pad for the same reason, IOW, not to pad a hot signal like a drum, but rather to get more gain from the pre.

[Brian]

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, we used to always use outboard pads, the rule was ?don?t use the pads on the board because they?re in the wrong place? in the signal chain gain stage. They added noise. The difference was slight but cumulative.
I usually use outboard if I don?t know the topology of the pre in question?s circuit. Some of them are done right.

[Matt C.]

I usually use outboard if I don?t know the topology of the pre in question?s circuit. Some of them are done right.

Would the "right" place in the circuit be the very first thing the mic sees?

[dfuruta]

Actually, it might be slightly better for the S/N ratio to have the pad directly before the mic preamp (after the mic cable). Probably doesn't matter in reality.

[Nick Sevilla]

There are three places where a pad can exist:

1.- The microphone itself.
2.- Along the microphone cable, in an inline pad.
3.- At the microphone preamplifier.

Depending on the microphone, the pad there may or may not affect the sound.

I like using the microphone's -10dB pads when I am using AKG451s, AKG 414s, OktaBa MK012s, and any AT mic, as they seem to not affect the sound much at all.

I do not like using the pads of Neumann mics, as to my ears they do alter the sound, like the KM184s, and especially the U87s.

On any other mics I own, I have not had a need to use pads yet.

Inline pads I like are the Shure ones. XLR cannon inlines, and I use them as close to the microphone as possible, usually using a shorty mic cable between the mic and the pad, and then the longer mic cable run.

And if I still need to, I finally use the mic preamp pads, although I find all of them to alter the sound, so I try not to use them if possible.

And which is my absolute favorite pad?

BACKING THE MIC THE F#$K AWAY FROM THE SOURCE.

Cheers

[vvv]

Good info there, y'all.

And I suppose, then, I am to conclude that the answer to my question, "does anyone do this for the sound of it", is "no".

Interesting.

I haven't done it a lot yet, but when Mr. Sevilla says, "And if I still need to, I finally use the mic preamp pads, although I find all of them to alter the sound, so I try not to use them if possible", I find the onboard pads do change the sound somewhat, especially in allowing me to overdrive the onboard full-voltage tube part of my Summit and UA pre's.

That, or my meds haven't cut in.

Or they have.

[Nick Sevilla]

Good info there, y'all.

And I suppose, then, I am to conclude that the answer to my question, "does anyone do this for the sound of it", is "no".

Interesting.

I haven't done it a lot yet, but when Mr. Sevilla says, "And if I still need to, I finally use the mic preamp pads, although I find all of them to alter the sound, so I try not to use them if possible", I find the onboard pads do change the sound somewhat, especially in allowing me to overdrive the onboard full-voltage tube part of my Summit and UA pre's.

That, or my meds haven't cut in.

Or they have.

You're right, they do... mostly of how the pad is designed, mostly with just a couple of 10% tolerance resistors and a filtering(polarized) cap drawing some of the voltage off to ground... some more expensive designs forego using a "pad" and instead use different gain paths for either the Mic OR the Line inputs, like Neve, Calrec, and SSL consoles. I know for a fact Neve models like the famous 1081 mic / line with EQ component actually use one transformer for each input, instead of the same transformer seeing a different signal off a switch. In the Neve design, there is a large stepped rotary switch with a resistor network on it, which attenuates the signal better, by having the draw to ground designed properly, instead of only one "pad" servicing both the mic and line inputs, each input has a whole set of resistors (usually 1% tolerance) for each gain sensitivity.

In a less expensive design, constant resistance pots are used instead of a resistor network, to reduce cost. It is these pots which sometimes can cause the sound to be very different. They are akin to a guitar volume knob, and we all know they can vary wildly from on pot to another.

A common misconception is that the "pad" is reducing the gain of the microphone. Actually, it is only reducing the gain used by the preamplifier, the gain of the mic is not changed at all, it remains exactly the same. That is why sometimes I listen to a recorded signal, and even though it was recorded at a "low" level, the signal is distorting, because the microphone is overloading. And usually the recording engineer tells me that he had to use the console's pad to get the signal lower... however he did not take the time to listen and determine that the mic needed the gain adjustment instead of the mic preamp input.

Unless you use the pad inside the mic body or in it's power box, if applicable, THEN the voltage coming into the mic preamp will be lower. That is why I prefer to do it there, and leave as much of the rest of the signal path as close to "unity" (not adding nor removing gain" as humanly possible.

Especially when recording drumkits... people wonder at how nice and clean and punchy the drums sound. It's because I'm not letting the mic electronics to overload at all, and use the mic preamplifier to get the gain back to unity without any distortion.

I recently recorded a low floor tom for a R&B track, and the producer could not believe it sounded longer and better than his 808 samples. I used an AGK 414B-ULS with the 10 dB pad and no hipass filter, set about 5-6 inches from the skin and NOT aimed at the point of impact of the stick (very important) and had the mic input set back to where I was getting a nice healthy level to "tape" (ProToolsHD).

That tom just went on for days... and days, and days...must have had a tail of about 15 seconds or so, since the tom was properly tuned. It sure was fun to watch their reaction.

[vvv]

Cool!

I do so miss mic'ing drums ...

Hmm: I may have inadvertently achieved true geek-hood! (in that I don't get paid for this stuff.)

I just did a song singing into a M-Audio Luna I just got, into a Meek VC1Q - my voice so over-drove the mic, plus the compressor was hit hard - it truly sounds like shite. Coulda used a cuppla pads there.

[Ryan Silva]

I use it when needed, but especially on the API 3124 paired with drum overheads....almost always SDCs and LDCs are too hot going in.

I know what you mean, those 312's are really delicate with loud sources, but if you can maintain control of it, its a fantastic pre. Even LDC on guitar cabs, I'm always reaching for that little yellow button.

Do they change the sound? I think they do a bit, not sure how to describe what I hear, they may just slow down a bit, if that makes sense.

I'll use the pads in the mics first normally, if thats not enough I have some whirlwind inline pads I can use. However when in a hurry I might just use the API pad and never look back.

It's mostly top snare that those pads bug me.

Maybe we shouldn't be using condensers with these pre's at all? Maybe its a sign? Dynamics and Ribbons only...................

[Ryan Silva]

And which is my absolute favorite pad?

BACKING THE MIC THE F#$K AWAY FROM THE SOURCE.

Cheers

[cgarges]

Pads definitely have an effect on the sound. I just don't get into playing around too much with using a pad as an "effect" because it usually sounds worse to my ears, unless the alternative is undesirable distortion. I'm fairly certain that I hear a difference in sound when using the pad on an API mic preamp as opposed to using a Shure inline pad before the preamp, so I usually use the Shure pads. It's a pretty subtle thing, though, and sometimes the mechanics of just flipping the switch in the control room is more conducive to a "get it done" kind of attitude during a session. Usually, I have many more opportunities to really fuck something up than worrying about the differences in where a pad is in-line.

Also Nick, I've never seen a KM184 with a pad. Perhaps you mean the KM84. I'm with you on backing the mic up, but in the instance of using a U87 on kick or snare drum or a FET47 on a kick drum or floor tom or a padded version (some are, some aren't) of the KM84 on snare or toms (one of my favorites), you lose all the beautiful proximity effect of which those kinds of FET mics are capable. In those cases, the mic with the pad on sounds better than the mic a foot farther away from the source.

It's a matter of choosing battles.

I had an interesting discussion a few years back with Terry Setter, who designed the Chameleon Labs microphones. I was suggesting that the TS-2 would really benefit from having hi-pass filter on the mic output (that mic has a very large and stellar-sounding low end) and he was adamantly opposed to what that would do to the sound. He suggested just using the filter on the pre. That's all well and good, but if I want to use a TS-2 as a room mic on a drumkit with an API 512C and filtering the tiniest bit of low end from the mic would be a big help, then I have to patch something else in line that's going to affect the sound of the mic as well, as the 512Cs (and most of my preamps, come to think of it) don't have a hi-pass filter on them.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC