Izotope plug sucks the life out of trx... (Long post)

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:29 pm

AWESOME!!!!

(make sure that you listen to it again a number of times very critically to verify your enthusiasm)

GJ

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Jeff White
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Post by Jeff White » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:37 pm

Been using it for some aspects of mastering since 2005. Good to go over here. The limiter is solid but definitely has a learning curve. And you should definitely use compression before it.

Jeff
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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:43 pm

Thanks Again.

(Still doesn't explain what happened)

GJ

jhharvest
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Post by jhharvest » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:03 pm

There is one thing that came to mind: did you low cut your recording before the plugin? Could you maybe go and check that your turntable doesn't let through infrasound (rumble from the motor / belt)? I guess that could make a difference especially to the low end.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:31 am

Hey JH,

If you mean microphonic type stuff from the needle, that's not it, although that's a good guess... This is actual musical/sonic content I'm talking about-- kick drum and bass; mostly kick drum.

Also, there was a default low-cut in place, but I when I noticed it, I took that out, and it didn't help much...

I'll get more details on the version next time I go in, and post the example I was talking about.

GJ

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Post by Brett Siler » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:51 pm

GooberNumber9 wrote:
tjcasey1 wrote:If you're using Ozone, stay away from the stereo imaging module. It's weird. And if you widened the low end, you basically lost it. If you really need the widening module, you should actually tighten the low frequencies by pulling them in to the center.

Everything else in Ozone is manna from heaven. I use it constantly, but sparingly.
+1
I've not yet found a stereo imager that I can just apply to a whole mix without way messing up the low end.
I found this on Gearslutz:
...we've had good luck using the Multiband Stereo Imaging section of the iZotope Ozone 3 plug-in.

best,
bob weston
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jhharvest
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Post by jhharvest » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Gregg Juke wrote:Hey JH,

If you mean microphonic type stuff from the needle, that's not it, although that's a good guess... This is actual musical/sonic content I'm talking about-- kick drum and bass; mostly kick drum.

Also, there was a default low-cut in place, but I when I noticed it, I took that out, and it didn't help much...
Oh, okay. Actually my theory was that low cutting should have -helped- rather than hindered. What I was thinking was that if you have inaudible low end rumble and the plugin tries to multiband limit (just what does 'loudness' do in this plugin, anyway?), then that inaudible low end crap would severely mess with the bass and kick. This would also explain why the phenomenon doesn't come up when mastering new stuff because generally we don't have infrasonics in our recordings. But this was pure speculation on my part.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Huh. "Reverse False-Positive Low-Cut Aliasing Bias." Or something.

Despite my poor attempt at facetiousness in the face of a technical explanation just barely within my grasp conceptually, I'm taking your idea seriously (it kind of makes sense-- a bit of multi-band over-compensation, aye?).

I will have to do more experiments on a number of sources and report the findings...

GJ

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:21 am

Updated Info-- The plug-in in question is simply that (a plug-in), the "Izotope Audio Enhancer" plug that comes bundled with Sound Forge 10, not the full Ozone program.

And, after using it on a couple more (original/non-LP) tracks tonight, it did not exhibit the nasty Count Bassuckula characteristics that it did with the vinyl; I will have to experiment with more LP tracks and post results. As far as multi-band compression is concerned, there is none evident, only lo-cut and hi-cut EQ as far as frequency controls, but that is what's available on-screen; I don't know what may be going on under the hood...

Will continue to seek an answer and post any pertinent info...

GJ

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digitaldrummer
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Post by digitaldrummer » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:16 am

Jeff White wrote:Ozone is an extremely excellent plug-in suite for mastering and sweetening.
Jeff
I've had good luck with Ozone too - once I stopped using the presets. there are a million different controls for everything and once you take the time to learn what they all do (I'm still learning) you can actually make some pretty decent sounding stuff. I'm sure a real mastering engineer with real analog hardware and trained ears and tuned room could do better, but I feel like I can get 95% there with Ozone (when there is no budget for real mastering).

some of the presets however have very aggressive limiting and expansion - so aggressive that subtle nuances like ghost notes on a snare drum or reverb tails will just get swallowed up and disappear. and like you observed, bass guitars and kick drums become lifeless too.

Mike
Last edited by digitaldrummer on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dakota
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Post by Dakota » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:18 am

Nick Sevilla wrote:
Gregg Juke wrote:Yes, but my point (at least one of them, anyway) is-- If it's doing that to vinyl, what is it doing to a mix (that _you_/me/trusting audio engineers) made?!?!!?

GJ
It is simply destroying it.

I hate all these pseudo mastering piece of shit plug ins. They try to do too much inside the computer, and they do it all nice and mediocre,

Then everyone wonders why their stuff sounds bad.

WTF...

No offense meant to you Gregg... just try next time to not use a plug in like this.

You have skips clicks, pops, and other transients in your vinyl?

WASH IT FIRST.

90% of that will go away, or more. If it is scratched, it's scratched.

Then if you MUST remove them manually, at least the top 10 offenders. No more than that though.

If you want to EQ, use some hardware on the way in.

If you want to do some limiting, I would not. The vinyl is already limited enough for me. I usually just make sure once I begin a transfer that I have found the absolute highest, loudest peak of the side, and set that to be my -3dB on the converter levels, dBFS peak.

OK, I'm back to my new diet, and my newfound grumpiness.

Cheers
+1!
& I really don't think vinyl transfers should be "corrected" to sit with modern CD mastering. If you are DJ'ing, that's another story, some things are going to have to get mangled somewhat for quick and convenient cue choices. Or have a limiter at the end of your DJ chain and push into the limiter for quieter tracks...

This "Ozone" being a bundle version, who knows what it's actually doing under the hood for "consumer friendly" auto settings.

Ozone has some good features if used very carefully and the functions are completely understood by a person with sufficient engineering and mastering mindset. I know that hearing demos where someone with a laptop popped through the ozone presets and settled on the pushy hyped presets... makes my skin utterly crawl. Ozone is really dangerous in unskilled hands.

Another thought that may or may not have anything to the with the OP's posted problem... not all digital high pass filters behave the same at all... some actually create worse weird lumps and boosts in the sub audio range, which could then make some hidden auto-range multi band leveler act really weird.

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Dakota
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Post by Dakota » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:24 am

& PS - Maybe I'm cranky and suspicious, but I generally prefer to use individual specialized plugs that I understand really well for each individual function, rather than swiss army knife plugs. That's just me though - however anyone gets good results, I like to learn from what they do, particularly if it isn't things I'm used to doing.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Yes, I agree. That's why I liked the Steinberg plug we used to have; it did one
job-- loudness/limiting. Not loudness, EQ, widening that I don't generally use or need, and/or any number of mystery mystical voodoo operations that everyone seems to intimate that I couldn't possibly understand, but somehow I must know intimately before I consider attempting to use the plug. I get it. That was the whole point of my initial post.

Unfortunately, I don't have a choice right now. It's not my computer rig; it's the one main bit of gear that I didn't contribute to the studio myself, but it's not mine to mess with or change versions on, so for now I'm stuck with what I've got. Re: the sanctity of vinyl; it depends, so I'll still have to make those choices on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't mind taking a turntable with me wherever I go if that was possible, but it turns out to be highly impractical...

GJ

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tjcasey1
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Post by tjcasey1 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:09 am

edit: This post was a bit ruder than I intended, so I'm deleting the offending material.

(P.S. And regarding my earlier statement that the stereo imaging module in Izotope's Ozone shouldn't be used, I guess I should clarify and say that I'd never use it on music mixes meant for pure listening. It probably is handy for video game or film soundtracks, but having the sound come from beyond the speakers always sounded gimmicky to me.)
Last edited by tjcasey1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:08 am

Well.

Re-read the thread _again_, maybe.

Didn't say "it sucks;" asked for help clarifying what went wrong. Never even said it was Ozone; I said "I don't know," but everyone else jumped to that conclusion.

Can't help whether _you've_ heard of it or not... That's supposed to be the measure of something to me? WTH-- I'm making it up to get _your_ attention?

Your condescending explanation is inadequate. Next.

"Move along" and "nothing to see here" indeed.

GJ

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