Izotope plug sucks the life out of trx... (Long post)

[Gregg Juke]

...using _very_ conservative/judiscious settings. What the heck?

MoreSpace, Chris, or various assorted and here-assembled computer wiz'-- Please explain this to me! I thought this stuff (higher-end, "mastering" type plugs) were supposed to be transparent, and only apply changes that, y'know, the user wants applied.

I was transferring some new vinyl last night (Gary Clarke Jr., "Blak and Blu"); basically just ripping so I have CD and iPod versions as well. I usually do a very light "re-master"/optimization on the vinyl (click/pop removal, _maybe very light_ EQ if necessary, edit intros and outros to make discrete tracks, and some loudness maximizing) to bring the vinyl more in-line with digital expectations, while striving to maintain the LP sound and analog flavor that drew me to purchasing the vinyl version in the first place. Don't get me wrong; EQ only applied for restorative or corrective purposes, like if I'm trying to work with some really older/messed-up records... I'm not trying to re-master everything that I transfer. I'm not thinking that I can do better than the mastering engineer, but there are obvious differences in analog and digital and just trying to match things up as best as I can.

So last night, I was doing some of this transfer/editing work, and I was A-B'ing a track previewing in Izotope. Before we made the switch to Izotope, we used Steinberg. Final mixes of actual studio recording projects, my own and others (ulp, paying clients) have been processed this way and I _never before noticed what I'm about to describe_ until now. Anyway, I noticed that when I used light loudness maximization (output gain at 0%, widener at 0%; loudness at 20% or less), the "boom"/"oomph"/power of the bass, especially kick drum, just evaporated. Gone. No amount of tweaking could bring it back. Post application EQ didn't really help either. Plenty of "loudness," but weak/no beef loudness is the apparent trade off. I did notice that there is a hi and lo-shelf EQ setting that seems to be engaged as a default, so I unchecked that; it seemed to help at a microscopically infintesimal scale, but not really too much-- life still sucked out.

I did make a sound file of both the un-processed and processed versions, but I didn't have time to make Mp3's for posting (which I can do later if someone wants to hear this phenomenon).

I just wondered if someone could explain this to me or point-out my error before I have to change my whole process or masscre the bass on another (real) project.

What gives????

GJ

[kslight]

Just out of curiosity which plugs are you using? I tried a demo of Ozone and I didn't like it.

[Brett Siler]

Are you using Ozone? I actually quite like Ozone. I always felt the Waves L2 was kinda bad about pinching the lowend. Kick drums would start disappearing after a few db's of limiting.

Some thoughts if using Ozone.
Maybe you accidentally have the multi-band comp on compressing the lowend.
If using the limiter don't compress anymore than -3db at most or it will really start morphing the sound. Maybe put a comp or two in front a the limiter and just use very small amounts of compression on each one.
Maybe parallel compression before light limiting.
Lengthen the release time to some where between 250-400 ms, should make it sound a little more natural.
Maybe a small amount of the harmonic exciter on the lowend? I think the harmonic exciter on Ozone sounds great!
Maybe a comp or transient designer after the limiter with a sharp attack to get the transients back again...

[tjcasey1]

If you're using Ozone, stay away from the stereo imaging module. It's weird. And if you widened the low end, you basically lost it. If you really need the widening module, you should actually tighten the low frequencies by pulling them in to the center.

Everything else in Ozone is manna from heaven. I use it constantly, but sparingly.

[Gregg Juke]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.

Yeah, lame, I know, but I don't even know which version it is (I'll have to find out; not my computer or plugs, which are owned by my current studio partner). I looked at the Izo website and couldn't find a screenshot that resemble mine-- it's just the finalizing limiter and nothing else. And, as posted, no widening applied.

I'll try to get the software info and post those sound files later this week-- definitely something that people should be aware of...

GJ

[Nick Sevilla]

This is why, when I transfer my vinyl,
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I transfer it FLAT.

Cheers

[Gregg Juke]

Yes, but my point (at least one of them, anyway) is-- If it's doing that to vinyl, what is it doing to a mix (that _you_/me/trusting audio engineers) made?!?!!?

GJ

[Nick Sevilla]

Yes, but my point (at least one of them, anyway) is-- If it's doing that to vinyl, what is it doing to a mix (that _you_/me/trusting audio engineers) made?!?!!?

GJ

It is simply destroying it.

I hate all these pseudo mastering piece of shit plug ins. They try to do too much inside the computer, and they do it all nice and mediocre,

Then everyone wonders why their stuff sounds bad.

WTF...

No offense meant to you Gregg... just try next time to not use a plug in like this.

You have skips clicks, pops, and other transients in your vinyl?

WASH IT FIRST.

90% of that will go away, or more. If it is scratched, it's scratched.

Then if you MUST remove them manually, at least the top 10 offenders. No more than that though.

If you want to EQ, use some hardware on the way in.

If you want to do some limiting, I would not. The vinyl is already limited enough for me. I usually just make sure once I begin a transfer that I have found the absolute highest, loudest peak of the side, and set that to be my -3dB on the converter levels, dBFS peak.

OK, I'm back to my new diet, and my newfound grumpiness.

Cheers

[Brett Siler]

Nah Ozone isn't a piece of shit (can't speak for the Finalizer plug in, never used it). I'm not alone in this opinion. That said though, I'm not sure if limiting on top of album that is most likely already limited isn't gonna lead to that great of a sound.

[Gregg Juke]

Dig y'all; I guess I'm just trying to do what seemed like common sense things to me, like bringing levels up on vinyl to roughly match CD tracks, so when listening on CD or iPod, I don't have to constantly ride volumes (let alone DJ'ing an actual gig).

But even light use did seem to make a mess of things, which again begs the question answered so passionately by Oscar the Grou... I mean Nick above; "How is this helpful to my final mix?" And this adds another dimension to the "actual mastering engineer" vetting process-- "Do you use Izotope finalizer? Yes? Goodbye" (click).

GJ

[Nick Sevilla]

Dig y'all; I guess I'm just trying to do what seemed like common sense things to me, like bringing levels up on vinyl to roughly match CD tracks, so when listening on CD or iPod, I don't have to constantly ride volumes (let alone DJ'ing an actual gig).

But even light use did seem to make a mess of things, which again begs the question answered so passionately by Oscar the Grou... I mean Nick above; "How is this helpful to my final mix?" And this adds another dimension to the "actual mastering engineer" vetting process-- "Do you use Izotope finalizer? Yes? Goodbye" (click).

GJ

Cool. He he he... I will now go dirty my studio some more...

Cheers

[Jeff White]

Ozone is an extremely excellent plug-in suite for mastering and sweetening. If you know what you are doing with it it can work wonders; if you don't know what you are doing it is really easy to ruin a mix.

This may help: http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/Ozone/support.asp Scroll down to the Mastering with Ozone guide.

Jeff

[Gregg Juke]

Thanks Jeff.

Again-- Not much to know or not know in this case. "Widener at 0%, Output Gain at 0%, Loudness at 20% _or less_; no EQ or filters applied, no Tube/Tape emulations applied."

I'm no wizard, but it should just make things louder/limit a bit, not radically change EQ, whatever my level of product or mastering knowledge.

Period.

GJ

[GooberNumber9]

If you're using Ozone, stay away from the stereo imaging module. It's weird. And if you widened the low end, you basically lost it. If you really need the widening module, you should actually tighten the low frequencies by pulling them in to the center.

Everything else in Ozone is manna from heaven. I use it constantly, but sparingly.

+1
I've not yet found a stereo imager that I can just apply to a whole mix without way messing up the low end.

Otherwise I find Ozone very useful. You should be able to actually bypass all the components of Ozone separately if you just want to use the limiter, which I find to be very clean-sounding.

[Jeff White]

I just mastered a single this evening, and used the Limiter, dither, and Harmonic Exciter within Ozone in the process. Sounds great.

Jeff