I Too Want An Monstrous Kick Drum... And Hat

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Nick Sevilla
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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:55 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:half a day to set up a kit? hmm. i guess if you're recording terry bozzio.
Or going to tape. I got used to just getting the sound that was needed, and during mix time it was just a bit of EQ here and there.

The problem with ProTools, and DAWs in general, is as you said, processing after the fact. I like trying to get the sound right then and there. Otherwise it is just a big circle jerk of pomposity with the endless choices of plug ins.

I'd rather bleach my eyes out, and put hot icepicks in my ears.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Post by Suntower » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I'll give it a shot. Since it's my room, I can take all the time I need... in fact, I've been screwing with this for 2 years, which probably indicates what a girly man, I am.

I finally went to samples because I figured I'd hit a wall (no pun intended.) It's a beginner's kit in an 11x11 bedroom so I figure there was no point even -wishing- for a Levee Breaks sound regardless of recording technique.

But I definitely want a manly, man sound so I'll have another go. I have 2 or 3 SM57s an RE20 an SP C1, a Blue condenser, an MXL condenser and a cheap-o set of 4 AKG 'drum set' mics (the kind one clipped on for live sound.) I also have a couple of UAD-1 cards so I can approximate the 1176.

I'll post any improvements I come up with.

Many thanks!

---JC

Nick Sevilla wrote:Ok, since you are still wanting the drums of doom:

1.- The Kick.
You will need:
One dynamic mic for inside the kick. Use anything that can handle the spl. I usually use a Shure sm57 or 58 for this torture job. This mic needs to be fed into a decent mic preamp, and make SURE it does not distort. This will be your Attack mic. As such it does not need compression.

One LDC condenser outside the kick. You absolutely will need one that can handle the spl. Typically 130 dB. You will need to ALIGN the signal of this mic to the dynamic above, so that they are in phase. This mic is your BOOM mic, the one that captures the length of the decay of the kick, and will need a fast attack, slooow release compressor. My favorite compressor for this is a Urei (Teletronix) 1176. Once you have FIRST aligned the phase of the two microphones, and ONLY THEN, do you start messing with the compressor. Set the 1176 to 8:1 compression, and set the attack to max speed (7) and the release to the sound of the kick length that you desire for your particular song tempo.

As to EQ, You need to reduce the low end of the dynamic mic some, and reduce the top end of the LDC somewhat, so that they complement each other.

For recording this sound, you will preferably combine these two mics into one output buss on your console, so they combine into one channel.

Now, as to the other mics of the kit, you absolutely will have to place them so they also align with the kick mics you already set up. TAKE YOUR TIME DOING THIS so you get a good representation of the whole kit, and that it all aligns with that kick.

Typically I would take from 6 to 12 hours setting up a "hard rock/prog rock" type kit like this. So don't take 5 minutes and wonder why it doesn't work. Because in 5 minutes you will not get it. Every microphone will need it's own EQ so you can shape each mic sound closer to a final sound. Throwing mics haphazardly and recording them totally unprocessed, as most eveyone does today, is for pussies.
Oh, and if you have a multitrack tape machine, us that to record on. It will smear things nicely.

You want a real man drum sound, man up and spend the time doing it right.

Cheers

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Post by Suntower » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:24 pm

I just saw this and wanted to add...

Nick Sevilla wrote: The problem with ProTools, and DAWs in general, is as you said, processing after the fact. I like trying to get the sound right then and there. Otherwise it is just a big circle jerk of pomposity with the endless choices of plug ins.

I'd rather bleach my eyes out, and put hot icepicks in my ears.
...at some point a few years ago I kinda gave up buying 'plugs'. That may have been a mistake (I'm sure they -do- improve) but I just got worn out wondering which of the THIRTY ONE eqs I should try for a given song.

This may be a mistake, but I'm just not smart enough to know which 'effect' to go for. (Oh the API sounds so much sweeter than the Harrison on sax!)

I just don't have enough hours in my -life- to learn all the subtleties of all these flavours. And I'm pleased to hear someone more experienced express that frustration. I constantly feel stupid in this regard.

---JC

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:28 pm

Nick Sevilla wrote:Otherwise it is just a big circle jerk of pomposity with the endless choices of plug ins.
it is? i've been using the same drum room compressor on practically the same settings for the better part of a decade.

explain to me why it would be better if i tracked with an analog compressor i like less rather than just putting this thing on when i come in to listen to playback.

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:42 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Nick Sevilla wrote:Otherwise it is just a big circle jerk of pomposity with the endless choices of plug ins.
it is? i've been using the same drum room compressor on practically the same settings for the better part of a decade.

explain to me why it would be better if i tracked with an analog compressor i like less rather than just putting this thing on when i come in to listen to playback.
Ahem, I think you are looking for a fight where there is none...

Cheers
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Post by ott0bot » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:44 pm

I think tracking with an analog compressor is completely different than using a plug-in after the fact.

1st - you are committing to the sound you will already want now. why add it later?

2nd - playing into a compressor yields a different result. you can get a comp to react to you performance by how hard you push the input signal. this may be more noticeable on vox than a kick.

3rd - you see cool lights go off, and possibly a VU meter make neat stuff happen

4th - you can justify spending 3k on equipment when you actually use it.

5th - I'm tired...good night

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Post by The Scum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:35 pm

Some things I find helpful, and aren't too expensive:

Good heads on the kick drum. Aquarian Superkick, Remo Powerstroke 3 and Evans EMAD are all pretty high tech, and get the drum sounding pretty good in the room, to begin with. You've you've got something less on the drum (Pinstripe, Black Dot, Hydraulic), you'll be surprised at what modern heads can do for you.

(of course, the joke goes: a great drum with a Superkick on it sounds like exactly that: a Superkick.)

Tuning is important. Sometimes, having the kick tuned a little higher than I think it should be records better. I think sometimes, you get a kick sound that moves a lot of air when you're in the room with it, but doesn't translate when recorded.

Try the trick of using a speaker backwards, in front of the kick, as a mic to catch some extra low end. Search here for "DIY subkick." Not terribly useful for a promary mic on the kick, but great for beefing up something else.

Try a distant mic...something down the hall. Maybe squashed and EQd heavily.

Try parallel subgroup compression to get both attack and body into the sound.
The pedal crashes should sound like the door on a '71 Eldorado being slammed shut. On a giant piece of sheet metal.
Try the heaviest hat you can find on the bottom (like a Rude or an old Z), with a broken top cymbal - not just an edgewise crack, but broken such that it's got loose arcs of metal around the edge - still attached and flopping around. And some loose ball bearings inside.

Or stack up a couple of broken cymbals, and whack them.
"What fer?"
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Post by Suntower » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:38 am

More good ideas.

Bigger hats. I've tuned -down- the snare. But I gotta say guys... And I hate to be accused of blasphemy... heresy... whatever.

I think I'm committed to samples. I've become pretty enamoured of Roland VDrums.

I'm just sick of fighting the room.

The truth is this: The biggest musical decision I'll make over the next 5 years, the one that (literally) keeps me up at night is this:

Do I gut my 2nd bathroom (and thus screw the resale possibility of my house) and commit to a decent size drum room or not. Bottom line, I'm pretty I will -never- get a decent acoustic drum sound until I build the bigger room. Just basic physics.

So... I'm hoping to say, FUCK YOU, PHYSICS... and start working with VDrums or Drumagog. (BTW: I -like- VDrums... quite playable. ) And if I can just figure out how to get some '3-D' action from them, I'll be happy. Maybe it's a pipe dream.

Best,

---JC

PS: I agree with the other poster about recording into the comps. I'm always stunned by people talking about auditioning various comp or tape emu plug-ins ex post facto on dry tracks. To me, that's like adding a wah pedal to a pre-recorded guitar track. I mean... the wah is -part- of the guitar part. Same with any recording kit. You get a different performance.

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Post by ott0bot » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:53 am

^^i sort of agree. but screw samples, treat the room.

yes an 11 x 11 room is bad for acoustics. What is the ceiling height? if that's near 11, that's a another problem. your will have all the relections hitting back at the mic at a similar time and having all sorts of phase issues. your bass will sound super-week and the cymbals washy and pitchy

rather than knocking out a batroom....I'd build some super-chunk sound absorbers out of 6" 703 or knaff rigid fiberglass, framed on wood and wrapped in fabric. Get one corner of the room super absorbant. then build some 4" square panels to hang in hooks above your drum kit. then build a few gobo's with some Wood & green glue sandwichs' to place in front of your kit about 4-5 away.

put the set facing out the superchuncked corner, build a doghouse with some packing blankets and a chair or stool in front of the kick. use and LDC in the end of the doghouse. the re20 on the resonant head. 57 on snare, mono overhead with the least hyped LDC or SdC to tame the cymbals. the sound treatment, tuning the drums, and mic placement should get you somewhere near big kick county and a solid kit sound.

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:14 am

Suntower wrote:More good ideas.
Bigger hats. I've tuned -down- the snare. But I gotta say guys... And I hate to be accused of blasphemy... heresy... whatever.
I think I'm committed to samples. I've become pretty enamoured of Roland VDrums.
I'm just sick of fighting the room.
The truth is this: The biggest musical decision I'll make over the next 5 years, the one that (literally) keeps me up at night is this:
Do I gut my 2nd bathroom (and thus screw the resale possibility of my house) and commit to a decent size drum room or not. Bottom line, I'm pretty I will -never- get a decent acoustic drum sound until I build the bigger room. Just basic physics.

So... I'm hoping to say, FUCK YOU, PHYSICS... and start working with VDrums or Drumagog. (BTW: I -like- VDrums... quite playable. ) And if I can just figure out how to get some '3-D' action from them, I'll be happy. Maybe it's a pipe dream.

Best,

---JC

PS: I agree with the other poster about recording into the comps. I'm always stunned by people talking about auditioning various comp or tape emu plug-ins ex post facto on dry tracks. To me, that's like adding a wah pedal to a pre-recorded guitar track. I mean... the wah is -part- of the guitar part. Same with any recording kit. You get a different performance.
Steven Slate Drums

Embrace the uniqueness of that room. No one else has it the same.

Some of the BEST drum sounds came from small rooms, or artificially created drum isolation in a larger room. Seriously, and for real. Rolling Stones? Most 1970's Rock?

I think your real issue is that you hate your bathroom. Maybe just paint if a different color, and definitely make it smell better.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Post by digitaldrummer » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:46 am

as suggested above, try treating the room. there are some pretty inexpensive ways to do it if you can DIY. superchunks are great and very easy to build. but at the same time, recording in a small bedroom will not sound the same as in a larger room just as the reverse is true. put a room mic in the bathroom and leave the bedroom door open. or put it in a stairwell, or bigger room. you can get interesting sounds when you compress that track.

Mike
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:57 am

yeah treat the room. it's really the smartest money you can spend. so long as you don't spend it on foam. get 703 or Roxul. it'll make a huge difference.

keep the bathroom. +1 on keeping the door open and putting an ambient mic in there.

as far as tracking into a compressor, i do that when i'm playing bass, sure, but why would i do that when i'm playing drums? i never have the drums in the headphones when i track, and i know perfectly well what the compressor is gonna do after the fact...it's on from the first playback...

i'm just arguing for sport here btw...

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Post by trodden » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:30 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:yeah treat the room. it's really the smartest money you can spend. so long as you don't spend it on foam. get 703 or Roxul. it'll make a huge difference.

keep the bathroom. +1 on keeping the door open and putting an ambient mic in there.

as far as tracking into a compressor, i do that when i'm playing bass, sure, but why would i do that when i'm playing drums? i never have the drums in the headphones when i track, and i know perfectly well what the compressor is gonna do after the fact...it's on from the first playback...

i'm just arguing for sport here btw...
"Pussy"

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Post by Magnetic Services » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:17 pm

trodden wrote:"Pussy"
Zing!

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Post by ott0bot » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:42 pm

trodden wrote:
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:yeah treat the room. it's really the smartest money you can spend. so long as you don't spend it on foam. get 703 or Roxul. it'll make a huge difference.

keep the bathroom. +1 on keeping the door open and putting an ambient mic in there.

as far as tracking into a compressor, i do that when i'm playing bass, sure, but why would i do that when i'm playing drums? i never have the drums in the headphones when i track, and i know perfectly well what the compressor is gonna do after the fact...it's on from the first playback...

i'm just arguing for sport here btw...
"Pussy"
haha! awesome!

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