"live-in-studio" sound in basement?

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macpogue
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"live-in-studio" sound in basement?

Post by macpogue » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:54 pm

Hey all, first post.

I'm looking to record my band playing a "live set" in my basement and a la the Make Up's Destination: Love. I'm worried mostly about maximizing what few inputs we have, and rolling with the bleed creatively.

Right now I'm rolling with 8 inputs and :
2 AT2020 LDCs
1 Rode NT1A
1 EV PL10 (not the 20, but a smaller, less bass-responsive variant)
1 SM58
2 shure PG48s
2 Cascade Fat Head BEs
1 Beyer Soundstar MKii

and I'm thinking of renting 2 AEA R84s

We're 2 gtrs, 1 bass, 1 smaller drumkit, 1 vox. We can isolate the amps but I'd like to ideally play without headphones, as the Behringer headphone amp distorts way too much to really be intelligible. Eyelines / keeping live energy is the priority for the recording. Ideally we'll hit record, play for an hour or so, then hit stop.

I'm thinking the Fat Heads in Glyn Johns on the kit, with either the PL10 on the snare and the NT1A backed off the bass drum a bit (it's worked well in the past), bass DI, the Beyer for vocals (sending the Beyer to a quiet PA in the room as well) and putting the R84s on the guitar amps.

Would I be able to cut down on bleed by pointing the nulls of the R84s at the drums / bass? The only baffles we have are couch cushions / blankets, so, not really anything at all.

Should I switch the NT1A on the kick for the EV PL10 for fear of phase issues with the Fat Heads?

Any other ideas for making a "live in studio" album?

thanks all!
I run House Studio and play in Sister Palace

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Post by vvv » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:24 pm

Consider the 58 on the kick, also, with or without the NT1 where you said.

I have also like the 58 on snare, as well vox.
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Post by kslight » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:50 pm

Without knowing the room...I think it will be some trial and error to get something usable. Not impossible for sure, and any considerations you make will be the difference between success and failure...such as placement of amps/drums and baffles relative to each other and optimum mic usage. For example put amps sort of behind couches/baffles so the mic is out of line of sight of other stuff.

I'm not really sure how much the ribbons are going to help, I guess it just depends?

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:20 pm

Hi,

Here's the way I would try it:

This method takes time. do it when the band is doing practice, and don't put yourself through any kind of pressure, to get it right.

1.- The vocal mic. Use a hypercardioid or a figure 8 mic for this, and record a test vocal while you are all playing a song together. Move the mic until you get the best ratio of direct vocal to bleed. FIlter out

2.- Bass gtr. Place the bass gtr amplifier in line with the kick, facing the same direction, but to one side. Place the mic to be used so it does not capture much of the kick. again, record sound as you go, and check until you get the best ratio of direct / bleed. Filter out EVERYTHING above 3K on this bass mic. You will not need that.

3.- Gtrs. Again, experiment with the placement of the guitar amplifiers, until you get a nice sound out of them in the room with everything else. Probably filter out around 200 Hz and below. Unless they're 7 string death metal guitars...

4.- Drums : These you'll only want to use very directional mics, so try using the figure 8s one as the as one mono overhead, one for maybe the floor tom, and put them so the null zones are where unwanted noise is, like crappy room reflections etc. Again, record and experiment with placement until is it as good as possible. As to the snare, you may not need to mic it up, unless your drummer is a wimp, or you are going to use brushes. Same thing with the hihat, it may not need a mic at all.

Possible channel layout:

1.- Kick
2.- Overhead
3.- Room mic (get a mic to capture it all as balanced as possible).
4.- Extra drum mic (brushes or really weak cymbal / tom) - only if needed, say for a cymbal ride throughout a song that does not get onto the mono OH mic well enough, etc.
5.- Bass gtr
6.- Gtr 1
7.- Gtr 2
8. Ld Vocal.

Enjoy.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Post by vvv » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Nick Sevilla wrote:

2.- Bass gtr. ...
I wrote a paragraph on why D.I. is mebbe better, re-read his post for a 3rd time and realized, he already decided on D.I. :)
macpogue wrote: ... bass DI, ....
So, stereo OH's? Or snare? :twisted:
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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:29 pm

vvv wrote:
Nick Sevilla wrote:

2.- Bass gtr. ...
I wrote a paragraph on why D.I. is mebbe better, re-read his post for a 3rd time and realized, he already decided on D.I. :)
macpogue wrote: ... bass DI, ....
So, stereo OH's? :twisted:
Mebbe, but then he won't get any bass goodness bleeding everywhere. And that could be a bad thing... Plus a DI would automatically mean headphones for anyone to hear it in the room.

All mics, for everyone.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Post by vvv » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:47 pm

I can only, of course, speak to my limited experience, but therein and for me, bass bleed is the most problematic, which is why I started to reco D.I.

When I did, I was also reco'ing cans for the drummer and bassist, assuming, as I am a rock bassist, that they are the two for whom the bass is essential to hear, real time.

I admit, one of my considerations is that, in the (hopefully) unlikely event of a punch being necessary, bass bleed is, IME, the biggest complication, and the hardest to control/minimize.

That said, I did mis-count the tracks, and the D.I. would simply take up the track you assigned to it, leaving no extra track as I somehow thought.

And that said, lemme say I would rather sacrafice the room mic (or the "Extra drum mic") to either a stereo OH, or a snare mic.

Which finally leaves me (or izzit the second martoonie? - long week) to say, it all depends on the song!

Horses for the coarsest - izzat how it goes? :twisted:
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Post by macpogue » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:24 pm

We can DI the bass while still playing the cab at a minimal level, through a preamp out on the bass. That's a good idea about trying to align the bass amp with the kick drum, I figure bass bleed won't be too horrendous with some placement tricks and keeping the amp quiet. It sounds like trial-and-error is really the best way to go here, which is lucky because we have probably 8 sessions before recording.
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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:48 am

Have the bassist sit on the cab. You can get them to play much quieter if they can still feel the bass.

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Post by jgimbel » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:26 am

Some really great advice here. I definitely agree about DIing the bass. Exclusively is ideal but a quiet cab can be fine based on how much you can isolate things. I find when I do these kind of sessions here (which is relatively often, I actually have one this Sunday) I can minimize bleed and get things sounding really nice, except that with a bass amp (or bass amp only, especially) it just bleeds into everything, and at worst it rattles the snare, which can give much more of a concert feel than you (or I) might be going for.

But these can have really great results. I generally still do vocals separately so I can put them up front in the mix if I want without bringing out cymbal bleed and stuff, but in general I really love working this way. Here's a video from a band that came in last year for a session like this. Guitar, bass, and drums recorded live, bass reamped after, vocals and other guitars and whatnot overdubbed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1xnExh-D4
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Post by roscoenyc » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:40 am

Treatment on the celing above the drums and above the singer!

Small amps all around.... or attenuators on the amps.

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Post by Darlington Pair » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:50 am

I just did this as a three piece and I'm pretty happy with my results.

1. D112 Kick
2. Shure M267 with a beta 98 on the snare a SDC overhead, and a little pzm in the kick
3. two bass mics for the two amps one was an e609 for the smaller amp, I'll have to go look to see what the other was through a modded Altec 1628a to mix two channels
4. Two guitar mics through two more 1628a channels, an e609 and a BLUE Ball
5. Vocals, already compressed/de-essed through an RE-501 space echo and ADL tube DI, AKG D1000e
6, 7. Mid/Side pair of a BLUE Baby Bottle and Apex 215 ribbon through a pair of Neumann V476b's in the middle of the room

The sound ended up sounding like a live rock and roll band, which was what I wanted.

We said the drums up in the middle with gobos to keep the snare from rattling and for a little bit of isolation. The bass was an Oliver PA-100xr on a Traynor 2x15 on the right and a Traynor Bass Mate on the left. The guitar was a Fender Vibrolux on the right and a Traynor Custom Reverb w/ Fender Showman 2x12 on the left. There were vocal monitors on the left and right and I stood singing so the back of the mic was facing everything. We got everything left to right balanced and hit record. I'm pretty happy with the sound of just the Mid/Side pair.

I'm pretty sure that was it, we just embraced the bleed.

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Post by drumsound » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:26 am

I think you're on the right path thinking about mic patterns. Also keep in mind that most cabinets are also directional. Check out http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=82916 for a cool way of placing amps related to drums. A little experimenting, and checking things in solo, so see if you can deal with the "source to bleed" ratio of each input.

Roscoe's advice about absorption above drums and vocal is great. I'd think about behind them too. Especially behinds the singer to minimize drum and cymbal reflections.

Packing blankest, furniture and office dividers are your friends as well.

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:49 am

^^^^^^^ yes.

make sure the drum bleed in the vocal mic sounds good.

i've done this a variety of ways....amps in line(or behind) the drums...amps on the other side of the room from the drums...and amps just wherever they happened to be. all of them turned out fine, the main thing is really just having a good balance happening in the room. if your drummer hits reasonably hard and your amps aren't stupidly loud it'll work out.

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Post by vvv » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:02 pm

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:Have the bassist sit on the cab. You can get them to play much quieter if they can still feel the bass.
8)
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