Sanford Parker Vocal Tip (T.O. 86) question???

[hunterchristy]

I'm working with a thrash metal type band, and for vocals I decided to try the vocal tip mentioned in Tape Op 86 by Sanford Parker, wherein you plug a no-ratio, no-threshold, maxed out dbx 160, into another one, allowing one to break up, but the other to reel it back in.

i must say, for the most part, where i've used it, it's pretty cool.

however, there are certain instances where i'm getting some "ck" "ch" "pr" type sounds that are like icepicks...no "sssss" issues at all, just the above. obv using a pop filter, and the guys are about 6 inches from the mic.

anyone got any ideas on how to fix what i have tracked now? luckily i did record the mic direct as well, not JUST the 160 to tape, but i dont think (based on the release schedule), we'll have time to re-track.

MORE compression? de-esser? any help would be greatly appreciated!

http://www.tapeop.com/interviews/86/san ... oom-Maker/

[A.David.MacKinnon]

Are you on tape or digital?
A de-esser might help (even if the ssss sounds aren't bad). If you're in digital you can zoom in and gain down the offending consonants.

[hunterchristy]

If you're in digital you can zoom in and gain down the offending consonants.

I *am* in digital, but I am using it like tape. However, between using a plugin de-esser, and going in and gaining stuff down, I might actually try the latter!

Good call!

(i've never had good luck with deessers, and we're mixing all outboard.)

Thank you!

I just wasn't sure if one more gentle compression run would help smooth stuff out or not. But I might try this first!

[hunterchristy]

in case anyone gives a shit, after trying a few different things, here's the approach that i ended up using.

1. take the offending track.

2. duplicate it.

3. take the duplicate, and go through and just literally razor slice around all the hard sounds. for example: "the labirynth beckons" gets sliced like "the labyrin | th | beckon | s |"

4. once you're done with slicing your track. delete all of the material to be untouched, leaving only the grumpy sibilants.

5. take the grumpy sibilants track, invert the phase, and lower the volume. for example, my lead vocal was at 1db. I set the Inverted Phase Sibilants track to -8 db.


this blend smooths out the issues without neutering the whole track, nor making it feel like someone is hard-riding a fader.

did it suck? yeah. it took about an hour a song (1 lead vocalist and 4 backup vocalists).

was it worth it? totally.

[Gregg Juke]

Cool technique; innovative work! You should try and post "before" and "after" examples.

GJ

[losthighway]

Nothing to add, but thanks for sharing all of that. I sometimes overdrive my effectron with no delay for vocals- same trick mas o menos. I'll have to try the fix you mentioned should it be needed. It's brilliant because- as you suggested- you can adjust the volume of the out of phase track so some of the sibilance can stay in tact if needed for articulation.

I have doctored some tracks with the "sss" problem (my U95 causes it with some people's toothy s's) by automation and ducking when the de-esser didn't seem to want to catch it all fast enough.

[drumsound]

If you're in digital you can zoom in and gain down the offending consonants.

I *am* in digital, but I am using it like tape. However, between using a plugin de-esser, and going in and gaining stuff down, I might actually try the latter!

Good call!

(i've never had good luck with deessers, and we're mixing all outboard.)

Thank you!

I just wasn't sure if one more gentle compression run would help smooth stuff out or not. But I might try this first!

That's a pretty brilliant (though tedious I'm sure) method. I'll keep that tucked away for use if needed someday.

[hunterchristy]

That's a pretty brilliant (though tedious I'm sure) method. I'll keep that tucked away for use if needed someday.

It was tedious. It really made me realize that if I had just spent 20 more minutes and maybe picked a different mic / tape a pencil over the diaphragm / SOMETHING, to nip the problem BEFORE laying it down, I wouldn't have had to spend all of that time.

However, a stray Pppp sound can always sneak in when you last expect it, so this is a great approach I'll probably use in the future.

[ashcat_lt]

Glad you got it fixed, and I know you're feeling all smart and stuff, and I hats to take the wind out of your sails, but what you've done is attenuate the consonants and nothing more. You could have just snipped up the original track and turned down the hard parts, or used volume automation and ended up with the same result.

[hunterchristy]

I know you're feeling all smart and stuff

hahaha. nah. i copied my idea from the SPL de-esser unit. de-wind away!

You could have just snipped up the original track and turned down the hard parts

this is true, IF i hadn't also faded in and out of he snipped bits. without the fades there would have been significant volume jumps. fading the clips in and out gave me more precise control. I think this was the first thing I tried. It was very harsh.

or used volume automation and ended up with the same result.

volume automation would have been better, if I had known the precise amount I had wanted to take down the sibilants. Doing it the way I did it let me listen to the track and gently adjust the amount of attenuation.


I'm not disagreeing with you at all. here was my dilemma: I don't use plugin de-essers because I don't like them. I don't have an outboard de-esser at this time (though I may get an SPL one!), and I had a ridiculous tight mixing schedule, and in a moment of freaking out / not wanting to sit around, I just starting clipping up the vocals as described above, not even knowing what my plan of attack was going to be, but not wanting to do NOTHING, and knowing these were the problem bits.

Initially I tried the volume thing, then I tried sidechaining a comp, after trying a few things, the thing that worked best for me was what I shared.

[vvv]

FWIW, I de-esss ITB by just highlighting the specific "ess'es" and applying the de-ess plug in thereto. Sometimes, if it's not real bad, I'll just highlight and lower the"ess'es" volume.

For me, this gets the most realistic result.

I still can't decide if Jesse Sykes' records are too heavily de-sessed, or she has a lisp ... (And I have like 3 of 'em - love her and Martine's production.)

[Brett Siler]

Here's what I do with heavy vocals that's inspired by Sanford Parker interview. It takes 3 vocal tracks. 1 clean, 1 distorted and 1 vocoder track. I prefer an actual distortion unit (Normand Factory plugin distortion unit is great, amp sim, Rat pedal, ect) than an overdriven compressor but that's just a personal preference. You may need a gate on the distorted vocal, and set the vocoder setting to just "noise" not any of the melodic setting. Blend the distorted vocals and vocoder with the clean and it will sound pretty gnarly.