iLok turned me into Pirate

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As a studio owner, the most rewarding aspect is:

buying expensive software
1
13%
writing emails to tech support
2
25%
"log in to your account"
1
13%
wrangling with compatibility issues
0
No votes
just making music
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:23 pm

CK turned me into PIRATE!

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Post by chris harris » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:46 am

Same lame argument, different decade. If you don't like the conditions by which a company or individual sells something that they have every legal right to sell, you just don't buy it. Stealing it instead is not the answer.

For years, I didn't like the way Waves handled their authorizations and forced you into buying bundles of software you didn't need. Rather than try to teach them a lesson (or saying that to make myself feel better for doing something that was obviously wrong) by stealing their plugs, I just didn't use them. And, I got by fine without them.

Then, they switched to iLok, which I prefer, and started selling a la carte plugs, and now I'm a happy, satisfied, legal customer.
jhharvest wrote:I'm with jegler on this one. Customers shouldn't be punished for other people making illegal copies. If there are pirate versions, which don't require iLok, then clearly iLok doesn't work to deter piracy. Therefore iLok is a stupid idea. If it's easier to pirate a product than it is to use a legitimately acquired copy, then clearly the DRM measure is misguided. As a consumer I hate that shit and I'll happily speak against it any opportunity.

The bottom line of the discussion however should be: don't buy that crap. Companies won't listen until it hurts their bottom line. That's how the "free market" works.

And what comes to returns of digital goods... Thanks to EU we finally have Europe wide, sensible legislation on returns of telesales physical goods. I'm just waiting for the day when we can push the exact same requirements for digital goods. A seven working day, no quibbles grace period. Since you can't test a piece of software prior to buying, and the manufacturers don't always publish accurate data about the functionality at the point of sale, we really need an evaluation period for all software if it's actually what we want or not.

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Post by chris harris » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:54 am

Wherever you stand, LINKS TO PIRATE BAY AND ENCOURAGING USERS TO PIRATE SOFTWARE are things that are not allowed, nor welcome on the Tape Op Message Board. Many of the people here make their living from operating commercial recording studios. And, people who do that, generally don't steal the software they use. And, if they do, they certainly don't talk about it, because among other professionals who do pay for software as part of the obvious cost of doing business, it makes the pirates look like assholes.

I've gotta compete for business with half-ass amateurs who can afford to work for next to nothing because they just flat out steal many of the tools that my company makes investments in.

This discussion does not belong in this forum. As far as the moderators of this forum are concerned, this issue was settled long ago. Piracy is ethically and legally wrong. And, people who are responsible, working adults, respect that. I'm sure there are plenty of forums where the conventional wisdom swings the other way. You should take discussions like this to forums like that. They don't belong here. This discussion has been had here, over and over, for more than a decade. And, all you need is a peek at the forum rules to know that these discussions are no longer welcome here.

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Re: iLok turned me into Pirate

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:39 am

the OP was ok until he got to this part:
jegler wrote: i will be stealing as much of my software as possible from now on.
it's just not cool man. don't do it. have you ever done work for people and had them not pay? i have. it's a really shitty feeling. don't take food out of people's mouths. buy stuff that doesn't require an ilok, there's plenty out there.

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Post by chris harris » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:43 am

Yep. There's a rational, reasonable, mature, and legal way to deal with companies that have policies that offend you. Do not use their products. Find alternatives that you can support in good conscience.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't continue a dialog about DRM or copy protection... But, we should have an adult discussion that is respectful of others' rights. Discussing iLoks is not prohibited on TOMB. But, linking to Pirate Bay and encouraging software piracy is.

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Post by jhharvest » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:32 am

chris harris wrote:Same lame argument, different decade. If you don't like the conditions by which a company or individual sells something that they have every legal right to sell, you just don't buy it.
Precisely what I said. Except that I also advocate people speaking against stupid, ineffectual copyright restriction measures that mostly hurt the people who've bought the product rather than the people who pirate it. That way maybe one day we can change the practices that hurt legitimate consumers.

Oh, although one more thing: piracy is not stealing. It just isn't. Piracy is piracy, it's making illegal copies. Stealing is taking someone's property without permission. Those two things are clearly not the same. As long as we keep fudging the terms, it'll be all the easier for people to argue that piracy is acceptable.

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Post by chris harris » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:57 am

jhharvest wrote:Oh, although one more thing: piracy is not stealing. It just isn't. Piracy is piracy, it's making illegal copies. Stealing is taking someone's property without permission. Those two things are clearly not the same. As long as we keep fudging the terms, it'll be all the easier for people to argue that piracy is acceptable.
Sure, maybe it makes it easier for people to justify doing something that is obviously wrong. But, it doesn't make their lame arguments any more valid. And, honestly, regardless of what you call it, the same people who have convinced themselves that it's not wrong if you don't get caught, will do the same things regardless of the semantics.

I don't really care what it's called. You're TAKING something that the creator has chosen to sell, without paying for it. It's just as ethically wrong as stealing. Arguing over the semantics is for people trying to justify doing something that's clearly wrong and illegal.

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Post by jhharvest » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:10 am

chris harris wrote:I don't really care what it's called. You're COPYING something that the creator has chosen to sell, without paying for it. It's just as ethically wrong as stealing.
Fixed that for you. Fair enough. :wink:

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Post by chris harris » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:11 am

jhharvest wrote:If there are pirate versions, which don't require iLok, then clearly iLok doesn't work to deter piracy.
This is inaccurate and illogical. The existence of pirate versions doesn't prove that there is NO deterrence. Not everyone involved with computers and audio has the interest or knowledge to seek out pirated software and jump through the hoops (there are hoops for illegally pirated software too {torrents, .rar conversions, etc}, they just don't cost money, so they're ignored and go uncriticized).

I know many people who have asked me to install my software on their systems. When I explain to them that even if I was inclined to give them a copy of something I payed a lot of money for, that it wouldn't work on their system without an iLok authorization, they move on and look for other alternatives. Some of them surely end up with pirated copies. But, not all of them do. Some of them end up buying a more affordable alternative.

It's easy to assume that everyone is just like us. It's easy to think that everyone has the same knowledge and access that people who tweak their computers all the time have. But, it's simply not true. There is a huge segment of the market that is completely ignorant of the existence of pirated software, and clueless about hot to obtain and install it. For these people, the iLok is a useful and effective deterrent.
jhharvest wrote:If it's easier to pirate a product than it is to use a legitimately acquired copy, then clearly the DRM measure is misguided. As a consumer I hate that shit and I'll happily speak against it any opportunity.
It's fine to speak out and register your complaints. I was pretty concerned when the iLok system had a major snafu a couple of days ago. But, again, whether or not it's easier to use cracked software, or to use an iLok is completely subjective. In my business, it's much simpler for me to do what's right and legal, and to have a machine that works right every time, and one that I can get support for, than it is for me to load my computer with questionable software that can potentially cripple a session with no means of support should a problem arise.

So, for me, in my business/studio, it's much easier to use legitimately acquired software than it is to use pirated software.
jhharvest wrote:The bottom line of the discussion however should be: don't buy that crap. Companies won't listen until it hurts their bottom line. That's how the "free market" works.
Exactly. Buy what works for you. If something doesn't work for you, buy something that does.

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Post by chris harris » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:16 am

The problem with this whole thing is when we treat this ridiculously petulant, childish rationalization of something that's wrong, as if it's a legitimate response to being put off by a company's policies.

There are plenty of valid arguments against DRM. NONE of them justify piracy.

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Post by Gregg Juke » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:03 pm

Yes, now we're venturing into philosophical and epistemological territory that has been covered before, but is still relevant in this "late-dawn of the mid digital" era. It depends on what your definition of "piracy" and "stealing" is, but it also depends on your definition of "product/creation/intellectual property" etc., etc., etc., because the digital age has messed with our minds regarding the nature of the "physical" and the "digital/ethereal."

All that is extremely exciting from a rabbinical/Platonic perspective. Awesome stuff.

But in reality, where we live on the ground, it's stealing. that's where the term "piracy" comes from, actually, long before it's use in the music and intellectual property-rights biz (remeber those one-eyed guys with the hooks that say "ArrGGH?").

So yeah, I understand there are lots of perspectives, and I'm not so quick to throw out the expletives at somebody for venting, but I gotta agree with Chris-- Stealing is stealing. Skakespeare couldn't have said that one any better.

GJ
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Post by fossiltooth » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:16 pm

jhharvest wrote:Customers shouldn't be punished for other people making illegal copies. If there are pirate versions, which don't require iLok, then clearly iLok doesn't work to deter piracy. Therefore iLok is a stupid idea.
Sorry jharvest, but this is simply not true. Do your research. ILok2 is as of yet uncracked. The very reason the upgrade to iLok2 had to be made (as well as the reason that the OP is Sh*t-Outta-Luck) is that pirates' cracks forced developers to update the software in order to lock the pirates out.

When the pirates finally do crack this one (and go back to exploiting the hard work of the developers who make the tools we rely on -- profiting on those tools for themselves via ads for porn and penis pills and even human trafficking) the devs will just be forced to update again. Leaving the OP even more "S.O.L." In reality, it is the pirates are causing the punishment to the users.

Also, yes: copy protection actually does work. That's a fact too. The numbers are out there to prove it, if you'd care to look them up. And yes: profiting on someone's creations without their consent is "stealing." ...But let's pretend for a second, for arguments sake that it's not "stealing." (Even though it is.) Then guess what? It's still do*chbaggery. Stealing tools is for tools. Plain and simple.
Snarl 12/8 wrote:In the spirit of the misguided and overreaching copyright laws in this country, I want a nickel every time you use that sig.
If anything, the copyright laws in this country are currently under-reaching. In fact, the exploitation of artists for profit is at an all-time high. Here's a recent study posted to NPR about how music earnings are LESS equitable, not more, in the piracy age:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/06/ ... n-2-graphs

And for those few of you who haven't been hipped to it yet, here's "Meet The New Boss, Worse Than The Old Boss":

http://thetrichordist.com/2012/04/15/me ... full-post/

The tired old rhetoric from the big tech sector just isn't cutting it anymore. Piracy has destroyed too many careers before they've even begun, and locked out too many potentially great artists from the lower and middle classes. It's gotta stop. These BS justifications aren't welcome here, or anywhere else where people care about making music sustainable.
Last edited by fossiltooth on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by plurgid » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:36 pm

fossiltooth wrote: ... When the pirates finally do crack this one (and go back to exploiting the hard work of the developers who make the tools we rely on, profiting on those tools for themselves via ads for porn and penis pills and even human trafficking)
:roll:

yeah ok. whatever, man ... downloading cracked software from the pirate bay is equivalent to supporting teh terroritz ... and sex slave masters ... riiiiight. It's not like that even a little bit, but you probably know that already.

your argument is not well supported by blatant bs hyperbole anymore than some knowitall spikey-hair'd high-school philosopher opining that "it's not really theft because you're just making a copy".

c'mon mannnnnn ....

here's something constructive:

http://www.dontcrack.com/

check that out, yo!

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Post by fossiltooth » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:40 pm

plurgid wrote:
fossiltooth wrote: ... When the pirates finally do crack this one (and go back to exploiting the hard work of the developers who make the tools we rely on, profiting on those tools for themselves via ads for porn and penis pills and even human trafficking)
:roll:

yeah ok. whatever, man ... downloading cracked software from the pirate bay is equivalent to supporting teh terroritz ... and sex slave masters ... riiiiight. It's not like that even a little bit, but you probably know that already.
If it's hyperbole, it's not by much. Pirate Bay absolutely hosts ads for "Russian Brides" and "Chinese Wives." That is a fact: http://thetrichordist.com/tag/human-trafficking/

I don't know if those companies are hardcore human-slavery traffickers (although many are, and that actually is a serious problem online) But it's still not something I want any project I'm involved in supporting. And the Pirate Bay's ads are tame compared to a lot of what's out there.

And yes, absolutely: Many pirate sites, especially cyber-lockers (the Bay isn't the only one out there ya know) have been directly connected to Earstern European mobsters, many of whom who sell arms to terrorists. Oh, yeah, as well as actual human sex slaves. That's not some FoxNews-style paranoid BS. That's reality.

So again, if any of it is hyperbole (and I'm not certain it is) it's not by a lot. It's in the same damn ballpark, that's for sure.

So, it actually is "like that." "A lot bit." I welcome you to do some research.

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Post by jhharvest » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:55 pm

fossiltooth wrote:
jhharvest wrote:Customers shouldn't be punished for other people making illegal copies. If there are pirate versions, which don't require iLok, then clearly iLok doesn't work to deter piracy. Therefore iLok is a stupid idea.
Sorry jharvest, but this is simply not true. Do your research. ILok2 is as of yet uncracked. The very reason the upgrade to iLok2 had to be made (as well as the reason that the OP is Sh*t-Outta-Luck) is that pirates' cracks forced developers to update the software in order to lock the pirates out.
Oh, okay. I wouldn't know - I don't usually look for cracked stuff. The OP said that he had downloaded pirate copies, since his bought copies didn't work, which made me assume that it had been cracked.

When I search iLok2 on Google, 6 of the results on the first two pages are "iLok2 stopped working". On related searches it offers me "iLok2 flashing" and "iLok2 cracked" - so I guess it's working as intended then.

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