is mic preamp neccessary?

grouper · Post by **grouper** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:00 am

Hello guys,

so i've just started recording on tascam 244. i'm using an sm57 to record acoustic guitar (i know a condenser should be much better...) and i always have to crank the gain almost all the way up to get a decent signal. i'm pretty new to this and i always took it for granted that a recording device would have a mic preamp built in. also when i'm transferring to DAW the ouput is pretty low and "tap" sounds replace some of the notes.

would buying a mic preamp fix this?

Justin Foley · Post by **Justin Foley** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:41 am

Mic preamps are called "pre"amps because, in a live setting, they bring the signal produced by the microphone up to a level loud enough to then be fed to a PA amplifier (and then to some speakers). They are before the amps.

But for the purposes of recording, it's better to think of them just as mic amps. Their most basic task is to amplify the mic so that the recording device can use it. (Some do other stuff, mostly changing the sound.)

You're using a pretty basic setup; a cheapo preamp will get your 57 and 244 to work better together.

= Justin

telepathy · Post by **telepathy** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:59 am

nothing wrong with a 57 on acoustic guitar!

Bro Shark · Post by **Bro Shark** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:24 pm

I'm guessing the 244 has a mic pre on each channel, and that it's the red knob and it may in fact be called "gain." That's your mic pre.

If you're getting a low signal you can experiment with moving the mic closer to the source, pointing the mic at different parts of the guitar, playing louder, mitigating auxiliary sounds (room reflections, appliance hum, outside noises etc).

Other possible technical problems:
- Your mic is busted
- Your mic cable is busted
- One or more of the mic pres is busted
- The 244 has dirty or bad channels

Try and troubleshoot all those things and see if you can get a recorded signal more to your liking.

when i'm transferring to DAW the ouput is pretty low and "tap" sounds replace some of the notes.

This is a trickier issue to debug. You'll have to be more specific about the tools and signal flow involved in your process. Likely you're pushing a -10dbFS signal into an interface that's looking for +4 dbFS. In other words, you're pushing a low-level consumer grade signal into a box that wants something hotter.

grouper · Post by **grouper** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:53 pm

hey bro shark, both on the tascam and the lexicon lambda i'm transferring through you could get a decent output through the headphones, only when i'm done and im playing it on my computer speakers without the headphones (which have a really strong ouput) i realize how low the output is and when i gain it up that's when the low frequencies and my strumming become "tap" sounds. and there's nothing wrong with my computer speakers as well. already compared it to other stuff.

trust me, i've spent hours trying to find good placements and adjustments to make the sound also work on the computer and it kind of minimized the problem but not to a result i was happy with.

is it normal to turn the mic gain knob all the way up and have them mic 6" away to get a good signal? if not then maybe i do need a mic preamp. otherwise i wouldn't understand why it's happening. i mean when i record the level meters would go from -10 or so to "overload". then when i play it on daw it would show less, so i gain it up and that's where all troubles begin.

Bro Shark · Post by **Bro Shark** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:14 am

I'm gonna let someone else take over here cuz I feel this is getting to the point where I'm possibly not understanding the issue.

Perhaps that 244 has lousy preamps - I wouldn't know - in which case, you could try using an external preamp instead. Just make sure you keep the gain on your 244 channel all the way down or very low so that you're not overloading the channel. I wouldn't rush out any buy something though, see if you can borrow something and do some experimenting.

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:13 am

FWIW, it would be helpful if the OP linked a sound sample, and perhaps a screen shot of the waveform on his computer.

Otherwise, we're guessing, and using terms the OP may understand differently ...

grouper · Post by **grouper** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:23 pm

okay i got a sample for you guys and a screenshot.

http://soundcloud.com/tapeopsamples/acousticsample

http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/amirs ... b.png.html

you should know that it's my best attempt so far recording acoustic guitar. i still had the mic gain all the way up, the track fader above the "safe zone" and the mic 6" away placed where the body meets the neck. i transferred it straight to my computer this time without using lexicon lambda which lowered the volume of the track down for some reason.

im my earphones i can hear it completely fine but when i switch to speakers it sounds fairly low at best and that's when some of the strumming and bass notes start to "boom" unlike anything that plays on my speakers, i'd really like to know how to solve it.

well, just listen for yourselves and tell me what you think.

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:02 pm

It looks fine and level is good, higher than it needs to be if you are (as you should be) recording 24 bit.

It definitely needs some pass filtering - try a low pass at mebbe 200 Hz; putting the mic out 12" might help all by itself, and don't point it at the soundhole.

Applying pass filtering will probably lower yer levels some 5 dB more or less, so then boost the gain and see if it fits better in yer mix.

I don't know from "lexicon lambda" but as stated above, recording is a process wherein you use EQ, compression, effects, panning etc. to make it all fit together.

Respectfully, based on your questions, you sound mebbe a little new at some of this, so I reco you use the search function re specific questions, dig in here, mebbe at gearslutz, at various DAW forums,even just through google - yer asking the right questions, now you have to find the answers that fit what you want to be yer results.

Bro Shark · Post by **Bro Shark** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:43 am

I don't think there's a fundamental gear problem here. Seems like the pres on that Tascam don't have a ton of headroom, so you're maxed out trying to reach the desired level. But the good news is you're getting more level than you need into the DAW, so here's a suggestion. If you can inch off the gain a little bit, and maybe move the mic back another 6" it might help. You'll get a lower signal in the DAW but it will be workable. It may also be more even across the frequency spectrum. I'm hearing what sounds like distortion due to proximity effect. You're getting a ton of low frequencies due to mic proximity, which coupled with a maxed out preamp is distorting the signal.

grouper · Post by **grouper** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:13 pm

thank you folks. i'm relieved to know that the output signal should be less, really. i will try all of the above for sure. i guess i need to dedicate some time to proper mixing. just the hi/lo pass i've been messing a bit with on reaper looks like will solve most of the unwanted low frequencies. i will dig around hopefully to figure out how to work with it cuz i gotta say that pushing buttons without knowing what im doing and see if i like it gets tiring after a while

also if you know of a good guide to hi/lo pass that also explains cutting low-mids i'd be much thankful.

oh and would you suggest i keep mixing on reaper or should i switch to the heavier stuff for better results?

again thanks and sorry for the noobish atmosphere i've been pulling you guys into. hopefully one day i could share with you some of my experiences.

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:57 pm

I think the recording sounds pretty OK. I find recording acoustic guitar to be very difficult, I don't think I've done better than that. I've only tried a couple times and I'm not as good of a guitarist as you. One thing that might be a factor for both of us, is that, at least for me, my guitar is an incredibly cheap POS. I don't know if this applies to acoustic guitar, but I know for other instruments, sometimes better instruments, (maybe even better played), get a better sound recorded.

I don't know if what I just typed helps you in any way. I guess I'm saying maybe you don't need a better preamp before you get a better guitar, or room treatment, or a better mic, or better technique. Etc. (Maybe? I'm not trying to criticize or even say I know for sure what the main problem is. I get that "boomy" thing happening when I record acoustic too. I always chalked it up to the crappiness of the guitar and/or my horrible technique, but who knows? Maybe it was the preamp all along.)

One rule of thumb about gear purchases is to only buy stuff you're positive you need. Like, if you're asking, "would a 'better pre' help me here?" You really shouldn't be buying a "better" pre. Renting one, maybe (to find out). Unless you're a gabizzillionaire. In which case you should just go to a recording studio or have one built and staffed for you in your house.

I'm really, really tired right now. I know some of what I've written might sound insulting, I really, really don't mean it that way. I hope you can understand.

kevin206 · Post by **kevin206** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:04 am

It's good to see another Reaper user! I use Reaper and stock plug-ins...they work very well. Your screenshot and your sound seem okay, as others have stated. You mention the level is problematic while playing through your speakers. I suggest that you import a wave file from a CD, or even an MP3, into your project and see how it sounds. You may need to adjust the level down for comparison, but it may be helpful for troubleshooting.

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:20 am

I wanna meet a gabizzillionaire, hopefully single female.

But we can talk ...

Back on OT, sometimes I like to point a mic at the floor, mebbe 1-2' out and 2-3' above the guitar. There's also the now almost-standard of placing the mic at ear level, over the player's shoulder, pointing more or less at the guitar.

grouper · Post by **grouper** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:34 pm

no offense taken snarl, i know just what you mean. i guess recording an acoustic guitar is not that easy as i thought it to be before i started, but i'll keep trying until it sounds okay to me. and don't get me wrong i don't want it to sound perfect or anything... far from it. i just want the guitar frequencies to be more present than they are right now ya know?
actually i was just listening to music on shuffle and an elliott smith b side played and i was shocked by how "boomy" it sounded. way worse than anything i've recorded so far.
then again on the same subject if you listen to smith's self titled album you'd be amazed by how cheap and clear it sounds. sure there are hisses and snare noises but the guitar is just so spot on. take the song clementine for example, i don't have a perfect pitch but i think the 6th string is tuned to a C. yet there are no boom sounds and the bass notes are so clear and also you feel like you're right there on the fretboard. i'm really curious to know how he achieved it.

kevin and vvv, thanks for the tips. will try!

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is mic preamp neccessary?

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