Airy mic to compliment SM7b and vintage U87 for vocals?

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Post by roscoenyc » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:52 am

drumsound wrote:Maybe not as classy as some of the mics mentioned, but the 4050 seems like a coog compliment to the 87 and SM7.
Pretty good mike to have around. Multi pattern too. Easy to get fixed if need be.

We have the Manley Ref Card and the Telefunken AR-51 Both great mics. I still like the AT 4050 for a lot of stuff.

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Post by Recording Engineer » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:12 pm

Jim Williams wrote:My mic has extra depth in the low end, I suspect the cathode follower design has a deeper low end response.
What design does a stock Apex 460 have and is it still the same design after the Fox Mod? Sounds like the cathode follower design is for me!

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Post by jgimbel » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:51 pm

Great conversation here guys, thanks again for the input.
vvv wrote:My thought exactly, altho' I confess that I'd rather change out the mic (I have a few) than use EQ, if that change will work.
I totally agree, I'd much rather change out a mic than EQ if possible, hence wanting a mic that will cover this type of sound that I find myself trying to EQ quite often.
drumsound wrote:Maybe not as classy as some of the mics mentioned, but the 4050 seems like a coog compliment to the 87 and SM7.
I do like my 4050 for a lot of things, it's a great natural, neutral workhorse, but I've never really fallen in love with it for vocals. It was the main condenser I used for vocals for a while and while it never sounded particularly bad, it never gave me the gorgeous sound I sometimes want for a lead vocal that's the focus of a song. I actually have liked my 3035 for some situations like the ones I'm trying to cover in a new mic, definitely closer than the 4050, but still not quite there for vocals for me. It's a favorite on FOK too, it gets a kick drum's low end so beautifully.
roscoenyc wrote:We have the Manley Ref Card and the Telefunken AR-51 Both great mics.
If you don't mind I'd love a little feedback about the two. Have you used the AR51 on vocals (or acoustic guitar even)? If so, do you find it a lot more harsh than the Manley? Other than that concern the main worry I have about the AR51 is that it might not pick up much low end. People describe it as having a "tight low end", which often seems to translate as not having a ton of low end, or extended lows. Usually I consider that a good thing for situations where I often end up taking out a bunch of low end, but I also feel like a brighter/airy mic needs at least a neutral low end or more to be able to balance out the highs and not just be a thin-sounding mic.
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Post by roscoenyc » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:32 pm

jgimbel wrote:Great conversation here guys, thanks again for the input.

roscoenyc wrote:We have the Manley Ref Card and the Telefunken AR-51 Both great mics.
If you don't mind I'd love a little feedback about the two. Have you used the AR51 on vocals (or acoustic guitar even)? If so, do you find it a lot more harsh than the Manley? Other than that concern the main worry I have about the AR51 is that it might not pick up much low end. People describe it as having a "tight low end", which often seems to translate as not having a ton of low end, or extended lows. Usually I consider that a good thing for situations where I often end up taking out a bunch of low end, but I also feel like a brighter/airy mic needs at least a neutral low end or more to be able to balance out the highs and not just be a thin-sounding mic.
A big part of all the Manley gear is their line amps. We use both of those mics out in front of a double headed kick drum (where they both pick up plenty of low end) and for vocals too. The T-Funken get's a few different sounds from the different patterns. No mic is right for every vocalist but both of those end up being 'inspiring' to a lot of singers at our place.

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:08 pm

Peluso.

I have his U47 clone, in the special edition.

Awesome sounding. Very open.

Also, try his C12 clone.
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Post by losthighway » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:31 am

Soundelux U95. It's bright.

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Post by agershon » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:08 am

Client of mine brought over her Mojave MA-200 for a couple sessions recently. It's very, very airy and a touch sibilant on her voice. I think in the end it will cut through this dense rock mix nicely, but I must admit I was a bit surprised by the lack of body.

Anyway, just though I'd throw that out there.

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Post by losthighway » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:59 am

Was it the 201 fet, or the 200 tube?

I have a 301 fet that is always articulate, never harsh,, but it's a far cry from rich.

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Post by agershon » Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:14 pm

It is the 200 tube

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Post by blungo2 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:25 pm

This probably isn't much help as it's very much on the budget side of things, but here goes.

I tend to favor darker mics especially ribbons for a lot of things. Cloud JRS34 and the AEAR84 are two of my very favorite mics that i tend to use on everything. Nonetheless, sometimes one needs a bit more air and high end lift than most ribbons can give.

I recently acquired a Red type B mic with a violet design vin-67 capsule. I'm very impressed. Lots of high end extension without any harshness/tizziness. Really beautiful sounding to my ear, very three dimensional as opposed to some other very well thought of mics that aren't very hyped.

On an even cheaper note, I've had my Stellar CM-6 tube mic for a while and it's quite nice too. Lots of air, but not tizzy and harsh.

Just my two cents.

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Post by jgimbel » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:00 pm

blungo2 wrote:This probably isn't much help as it's very much on the budget side of things, but here goes.
I'm not exactly on a tiny budget. I'm happy spending somewhere around $2000, I was just trying to maybe not go so far as the Manley, but we'll see.

I've been looking at the Telefunkens (AR51 and AK47) a lot still, though there hasn't been a ton of response about them. There is just something nice about them that balances in a way I like in a recording that I haven't quite found as much in samples I've heard of Pelusos, which I had looked at quite a bit in the past.

Thanks for the options everyone. I'll keep my eye out for these, test out what I can, then make a decision.
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Post by joninc » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:39 pm

I am a fan of character tones and for a long time my Lawson l47 was my go to mic for everything vocally but i after I did a few albums with female singers I started to want something airier and eventually I landed on the Peluso p12. I hate super bright mics but I find this one to be bright but not harsh. Can be very creamy with a tube pre like
A solo 610. I use it a lot. If you hunt around people will trash on pelusos but that model seems to get pretty solid reviews across the board. I first read about it in a thread on gsluts where UBK raved about it and I like a lot of the gear he designs.

It's not fat in the bass but I have never really missed that.

I have a friend who get amazing vocal tones out of his 414 uls by tweaking that eq on his millennia sst channel strip. Maybe an outboard eq could serve you well. The air band on the maag is pretty great and not expensive.

I have another friend with a soundelux 251 which is sort of the best middle ground if you have the bucks. The richness of a 47 with the airy top of a c12.

Good luck!
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Post by Jim Williams » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:01 am

Recording Engineer wrote:
Jim Williams wrote:My mic has extra depth in the low end, I suspect the cathode follower design has a deeper low end response.
What design does a stock Apex 460 have and is it still the same design after the Fox Mod? Sounds like the cathode follower design is for me!
The Apex 460 uses a cathode follower with the unused 1/2 of the tube. The output transformer is a 4/1 ratio. The cathode follower has the ability to drive a lower impedance transformer primary without distortion.

In a purest C-12 circuit, that 1/2 of the 6072 tube isn't even used. It uses a plate output design at 100k output impedance. That requires a much higher primary impedance load for the tube to avoid level drops and distortion. You will see a 12/1 or even a 14/1 ratio output transformer in that circuit. The Jensen DB direct box transformer has been used for decades in home brew C-12 clones. It has a 12/1 ratio.

In the Apex I also changed these resistors to optimize the circuits. R6 is a Mini Mox 1 gig resistor. R7 is 1.87K. R8 is 274K, all Dale CMF60 resistors. Those are changed to set bias for a 6072 tube. R2 is a Dale CMF60. The power supply decoupling caps are also changed to lower noise. Use 4.7uf 160 volt caps for C1 and C2. I added another from the B+ input feed to ground before R1. I used a Nichicon 6.8uf 100 V HE series with a great film cap bypass for C8. That offers the 10 hz depth in the low end a regular C-12 never has. Also remove C9 and C10.

The power supply also needs work to silence the mic. Change C2, 3, 4 to 100 uf 350 volts. C5 is 47 uf at 200 volts. C7 is 4700 uf 35 volts.

Yes, you can blow 2000 bucks on other clones and variations, but putting someone elses' kid through college is a large premium VAT. This entire rig can be had for about $350. I would easliy put that mic up against any of those expensive copies and enjoy the savings that can be put towards more mics or a decent preamp.

It's your money. And it's tight these days...
Last edited by Jim Williams on Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jgimbel » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Just a quick update, I'm still looking around at different options and looking more into the suggestions you guys have made.

I was trying to do more research on the Telefunken AR-51 to see if anyone had made any comments anywhere that would relate to my slight concerns about the mic's both bright top end and rolled off low end possibly make it just overall a thin microphone. I found some good comments, but none really seeming to complain about the lack of low end being an issue. But then, even better, I stumbled on a comment from someone who works at Telefunken (and linking to a post on their website about it) that the AR-51 was using a 67-style capsule that it wasn't really supposed to be using, originally (interestingly, a few people had made comments around the same time that if you replace the AR-51's capsule with something more C12/251-styled that it'd be much closer to a 251). Well, they changed the capsule that it was shipping with after serial number 760, changing it to their TK51D. Telefunken posted a comparison of the two capsules on SoundCloud, and I have to say it has quelled a lot of my worries. Similar airy top end (though a bit less harsh, seemingly), and more extended low end. Right now that mic is looking like the forerunner, especially since I may actually have a chance to test one out from a local pro audio company before I buy.

All that said, still looking for other suggestions and looking more into the suggestions made here. I'll be making the purchase in a few weeks so if there's interest I'll keep updated and post some samples of what I end up with.
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Post by blungo2 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 pm

This may be way off the mark, but it's one i've had an interest in lately, maybe not airy enough? The blackspade model with the Thiersch capsule? I guess it's supposed to be similar to an M49. Seems interesting anyhow...

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