a 24 bit minidisc type format: viable or dead in the water

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shedshrine
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a 24 bit minidisc type format: viable or dead in the water

Post by shedshrine » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:27 am

a 24 bit minidisc type format: viable or dead in the water?

How cool would it be to see a 24 bit lossless minidisc type format come about, lets call it 24D. Label /Artist produced pre-recorded commercial 24D album copies would be made available as well as recordable blanks. A digital format with phenomenal sound quality combined with the minidisc's intuitive easy-to-use editing and durability, and with the tangibility and collectiblity of vinyl. Portable players, home decks. Keyboard input, computer connectivity of course. Yay, hardware!


Sony?s Optical Disc Archive: 30 Blu-ray discs in a 1.5TB MiniDisc-like cassette
imagine this unit in a minidisc style deck format
ImageImage

Some pre-recorded commercial minidisc lps:
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Reply from Velktron on tapeheads.net minidisc forum

"How cool would it be to see a 24 bit minidisc type format come about, lets call it 24D. Label /Artist produced pre-recorded commerical 24D album copies would be made available??

So far, this would get the attention of the majors in a good way...


... as well as recordable blanks. A digital format with incredible editing, soundquality?


?and this is where you'd suddenly lose them and turn them hostile: it has been made absolutely clear during the past 25 years that they DO NOT want consumers to have access to a standalone, music-dedicated, easy-to-use, distributable and affordable, lossless recordable medium (remember DAT?)

The reason they allowed standalone CD-R recorders is because CD-R didn't satisfy some of the above points: it was not easy to use (it's a write-once affair, even with CD-RW), units were not cheap, and consumer editions onlly used overpriced blanks (which weren't even available above 60-minute lengths at first...plus truly lossless CD-to-CD copies were not possible with audio CD recorders). And because there was much pressure by the personal computer market already using CDs as high-capacity storage medium.

MD and DCC were tolerated because they were not lossless, as were analog tapes (though recently they have toughened up their stance so much that if for some reason the analog CC wasn't invented and was introduced anew today, they would block it too!). Stuff like PCM adapters using VCR as transports were left alone because they did not result in a practical distribution format.

But make no mistake: they HATE that RECORD key in any form and quality. They won't be happy until all consumer devices are playback-only (and as for computer software, one day "Trusted Computing" coupled with "Walled Garden" models for consumer software might give them the control they so far lacked.

Having said that...I think they might allow a limited run of read-only "24D" cartridges which will probably be SACD or DVD-Audio in disguise (for the novelty factor) to be made, but never consent to give the consumer a powerful standalone lossless audio recordable medium, especially not after the precedents of the DMCA and the TPP.

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Anyone here see a way it could still come about? Maybe a variation on the theme? Ideas?

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Marc Alan Goodman
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Post by Marc Alan Goodman » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:24 am

I would go ahead and say that any attempt a new physical format is most likely dead in the water. Fiber goes nearly everywhere in the world this decade. If people are going to package things for the sake of comfort they're going to stick with more nostalgic formats. I'd imagine that's why vinyl's doing so (relatively) well nowadays.

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Post by jhharvest » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:11 pm

Yeah, I'd echo Mr. Goodman here. Why would I, as a consumer, want a new physical medium? Why would I want to put in extra money to get no benefits, another box taking up space that's just locked into fixed specs, when I already have a bunch of generalised computing devices that can be updated with software? I'd much rather more companies went the way of Linn Records or similar and just sell me high quality digital files.

They understand that you can't stop piracy while we are in the digital realm so the solution is just to sell convenience - you can pretty much pick your format and requirements as you like. The basic stuff isn't more expensive than on iTunes or whatever but the higher resolution materials cost more to reflect the clientele. It's a pretty good system in my opinion.

The only kind of physical medium I could imagine is some kind of esoteric crystals with quantum entanglement - this would make the contents effectively uncopiable which would please the big publishers. But then you can always just copy the decoded stream so that wouldn't really be the fix-all they were hoping for. The fact just is that generalised computing makes preventing piracy impossible.

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Post by vvv » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:50 am

:deletes gratuitous 8-track cartridge comment: :twisted:

I note that Zoom and a few others record to and playback from SD cards, but I reckon the relative expense is currently high ...
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Post by kslight » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:02 am

vvv wrote::deletes gratuitous 8-track cartridge comment: :twisted:

I note that Zoom and a few others record to and playback from SD cards, but I reckon the relative expense is currently high ...
I have an 8 track recorder deck and blank 8 tracks should anyone desire an 8 track only release...

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Post by The Real MC » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:59 pm

Sony is both a content and entertainment device provider. This combination has proven to be very hostile to the consumer and professional market because the content division doesn't want the entertainment device division to release a product that would enable pirating in the least. Sony hates the record button and doesn't care if you are a content creator or consumer. That's why they tried to force MD and their proprietary format while omitting popular memory devices and formats that the rest of the world has grown to prefer.

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Post by Jeff White » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:26 pm

There really isn't any room or reason for another stand-alone playback medium. I honestly just don't see the point.


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Post by The Scum » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:10 pm

It's not a delivery format until it plays in my car.

The USB-host socket seems to be taking over...and somewhat physical media agnostic.
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I like hardware too

Post by alexdingley » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:47 pm

I like a good cartridge-into-playback-device system as much as the next guy... but, yeah, the reality is that we're long-since past the days of marketing something digital & physical to the mass market. Streaming is king now, and getting the music to play wirelessly onto a 4" clock-radio is more attractive to most consumers than the idea of "lossless quality"... <sad>

I'm a collector of SACD's and I love when I see some of my favorite classic albums come out in that Hi-res format, but I treat it as icing on the cake of life. I stopped expecting albums to come out in hi-res digital formats a long time ago.

PS. Why digidesign/Avid didn't invest in DSD conversion & processing 10 years ago still blows my mind. Imagine if they'd adopted that technology in 2001-2003 and said to everyone else "yeah yeah... you've got native PCM audio processing... but with our dedicated AD/DA & DSP cards, we can give you multi-track DSD audio with DSP on x channels." .... I think they could have stayed farther out ahead of the native market if they did that. ...but I digress.

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Re: I like hardware too

Post by jhharvest » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:03 pm

alexdingley wrote:PS. Why digidesign/Avid didn't invest in DSD conversion & processing 10 years ago still blows my mind. Imagine if they'd adopted that technology in 2001-2003 and said to everyone else "yeah yeah... you've got native PCM audio processing... but with our dedicated AD/DA & DSP cards, we can give you multi-track DSD audio with DSP on x channels." .... I think they could have stayed farther out ahead of the native market if they did that. ...but I digress.
It's been a while since I've given DSD any serious thought but I think there are two possible scenarios: either the DSD stored audio would be converted for standard floating point operations (in which case any potential benefit by DSD would be lost) or all plugins would have to be rewritten to work with a DSD bit stream. Or am I mistaken?

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Post by shedshrine » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:26 pm


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