Sound transmission through the ground?

austin · Post by **austin** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:40 pm

OK, I need some advice from all you smart folks.

I recently bought my first house. It's a detached house, which was important to me so I could play music in the basement without bugging the neighbors... Well, after a couple months of playing with my bands down there, the next-door neighbors to one side told us they could hear us from inside their house, and it was a problem.

We are not particularly loud, as rock bands go, so I was surprised by this. So I had my band play while I stepped outside to see how audible it was; standing between our two houses (which are about 20 feet apart) I could barely hear a thing! The only explanation I could think of, then, was that the vibrations were being transmitted from my basement through the ground to their basement, and vibrating their house's structure. Because they certainly were NOT being transmitted through the air.

We bought a couple of those Auralex GRAMMA things in the hopes of reducing vibrations from the amps to the basement floor, and for a couple weeks the neighbors said it seemed better. But this week the sound was once again "a problem."

My question to y'all is, Is there anything else I can do here? I have neither the funds nor the ceiling height to build a full room-in-a-room. Any other ideas?

(In addition to, yes, turning down the volume some more. Only so far it can go...)

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:10 pm

If possible de-couple the drums and bass from the floor. Building a drum rise on top of tires can do wonders.

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:31 pm

Will they let you into their place to hear it for yourself? (While your buddies rock out?) Maybe you can isolate the spot where the sound is entering their house and treat that rather than your entire basement. I suspect there is something physically connecting your houses (like a sewer or water pipe (or secret tunnel)) that might need to be decoupled. Might be as simple as throwing a Fernco on a drain pipe.

It could also be that your neighbors are anal retentive a-holes looking for an excuse to power trip on you. I'd want to hear what they were hearing before I even decided it was a real issue.

Lastly, you could ask them what sort of music they like and become that sort of band. Take requests. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

kslight · Post by **kslight** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:48 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:
It could also be that your neighbors are anal retentive a-holes looking for an excuse to power trip on you. I'd want to hear what they were hearing before I even decided it was a real issue.

This.

Have them demonstrate for you exactly how bad it is from inside their house, and you will know what you are dealing with. There genuinely could be something vibrating inside their house?or they could be stepping outside for a smoke break and wanting something to bitch about.

If they don't want to let you in the house to hear what's going on, then let them call the cops, let them laugh their asses off for calling them out over nothing.

Is it fair to assume that your band is only operating during normal hours, or do you push it late?

austin · Post by **austin** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:27 pm

We're usually wrapped up by 9 or 9:30.

They've been super nice in every other way, so I'm assuming they're not crazy... But yeah, getting in there to hear for myself is a good idea.

kevin206 · Post by **kevin206** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:04 pm

I had some friends that reheared in a basement and the little old lady neighbor would call the cops every time. She was practically deaf, so we couldn't figure out the problem. The sound level at the property line was less than a normal conversation. The cops said they HAD to come out with EACH complaint even though they themselves didn't think it was too loud. There was no ordinance concerning SPL or a measureable limit, only 'causing a disturbance'. It turned out that her DOG would start barking during the rehearsals. SHE wasn't 'hearing' anything. Ultimately the problem was solved with a lawnmower. A lawnmower could not be considered a 'disturbance' and cops WOULD NOT respond to a complaint of a running lawnmower. They would simply start the lawnmower at the beginning of practice and push it to the property line. The only thing that could be 'heard' from her house was the mower!

JWL · Post by **JWL** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:20 pm

You might want to see what the noise ordinances are in your area. It might also be worth investing in an SPL meter. That way if the police show you have some legal ground to stand on.

Generally speaking it is difficult for sound to travel through something as massive as planet earth (ie, the ground). If they really can hear you then the sound almost certainly isn't going through the ground, unless you share water pipes or electrical conduits or something that couples the buildings together.

Gregg Juke · Post by **Gregg Juke** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:24 am

My last studio location was in an old industrial building... Actually a complex of many buildings over several blocks, some connected by underground tunnels and an old pnuematic tube messaging system.

I could hear the radio, machinery, people talking, and the wind from outside and several buildings away (!)-- through the pipes.

GJ

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:05 am

I know I'm re-hashing some of what was said above:

First things first, try and get in and hear it, and figure out what it is, ex., drums or bass are most likely.

If it's guitars and vox, you may just be playing too loud (I know you said not, but).

If it's bass or even drums, you might try facing the other way, gobos, etc.

If there are windows between (our basement has 1' windows at the top), or you have a tornado-door access or window pits, cover 'em, seal 'em, etc. Also, if there's a chimney or vents in place ...

Me tho', I find it very "suspicious" that you made changes and it was OK for a while but now is not again.

Neighborhoods would be ever so much more music and party friendly without the neighbors.

austin · Post by **austin** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:29 pm

Update!

Got in and heard for myself while the band played, and determined that it's:
1. bass and kick drum, mostly
2. incredibly quiet. I've heard cars driving by that were louder. My footsteps on their living room floor as I walked in were louder!

So I guess it very well may be just the sound escaping through my basement windows, not any water-pipe vibration transmission... as intrigued as I was by that theory!

Gonna try muffling the kick a bit more in the short term, and installing glass block in place of the windows eventually (which I wanted to do anyway). I think just the fact that we're making an effort is going a long way with the neighbors. Honestly though, I can't even imagine how this could be bothersome, unless all they do is sit in complete silence all day meditating or something.

Anyway, thanks for the replies!

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:58 pm

Don't give up on the idea of isolating the kick and bass amp. Plywood on that rigid pink insulation might work a bit. If there's no straight path for air between your kick and their ear then the kick is vibrating your house which is vibrating the air which is vibrating their house. If you stop the kick from vibrating your house...

Also, I can see hearing the kick and bass just a little bit being more aggravating than a balanced mix. For me it might be one of those things that once I noticed it, I just couldn't not notice it. If you know what I mean.

myfipie · Post by **myfipie** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:18 am

I would think it is most likely coming from the windows. The problem is unless you totally seal them up with mass it will not change. Perhaps change practice to a time that works for the neighbors?

Burnt Ernie · Post by **Burnt Ernie** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:49 pm

One more thing-If the ground is frozen,it will act as a coupled wall. Put the drums on a platform,maybe framed with 2x4's,topped with 2 layers of crossed 3/4" plywood sheathing,glued and screwed (torx screws) together,with either tires (go to Harbor Freight),get some (6-12) small hollow rubber tires,lay the whole riser on that. Make sure platform isn't touching the walls. Make sure the bass cab is on wheels,or build a small platform similarly.
Long ago,I had an old lady neighbor trying to sell her craphole house nextdoor,and did the same thing. She just didn't like a rental nextdoor.
-OR-
If the cops are REALLY driving you nuts,start up a snowblower anywhere in the back yard.Leave it there. Next time it snows,do their yard and driveway.

digitaldrummer · Post by **digitaldrummer** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:17 am

the dog may be barking not because of the music, but because your buddies showed up and slammed their car doors, walked up to your house, etc. My dogs pull that kinda crap all the time.

Mike

ubertar · Post by **ubertar** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:28 am

JWL wrote:it is difficult for sound to travel through something as massive as planet earth (ie, the ground)

Actually sound travels more easily in a solid than in a gas. Where it loses a lot of energy is crossing between mediums. So you're not likely to hear music transmitted through the ground, except maybe with a stethoscope, since your ears are in the air and your ear canals are filled with air. But you could possibly feel the bass frequencies, if they're strong enough. That said, "the ground" isn't purely solid... there are likely air pockets and moisture, so the sound will be damped by the changes of medium along the way, making it unlikely the music will be audible in the neighbor's house. Mass isn't really the issue-- it's more about distance and the changes of medium. At least that's my understanding of the acoustics of it-- probably someone else here knows more.

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Sound transmission through the ground?

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