Help with overheads/drum recording (phase?)

[Sammigz]

I recorded my drums with my overhead tracks panned hard left and hard right with the phase inverted on each (both thru a send to Presonus phase inverter). After recording, I solo either the left or right channels, and it's not hard left or right. It's seems to be a littttle more to the left or right, but not all the way. Am I doing something wrong? They are supposed to be all the way left and right, right? The phase inverter definitely screws with it because with it off, I can hard pan them properly. But with the inverter off I am having phase issues, so i need to invert it. Any help?

Any other suggestions on recording, mic'ing, editing, mixing etc. would be very much appreciated also (keeping it relevant to drums). I already have a decent recording, but wouldn't mind a few tips to try out if anyone has any! Thanks!!

[Bro Shark]

with the phase inverted on each

Why?

[Nick Sevilla]

I recorded my drums with my overhead tracks panned hard left and hard right with the phase inverted on each (both thru a send to Presonus phase inverter). After recording, I solo either the left or right channels, and it's not hard left or right. It's seems to be a littttle more to the left or right, but not all the way. Am I doing something wrong? They are supposed to be all the way left and right, right? The phase inverter definitely screws with it because with it off, I can hard pan them properly. But with the inverter off I am having phase issues, so i need to invert it. Any help?

Any other suggestions on recording, mic'ing, editing, mixing etc. would be very much appreciated also (keeping it relevant to drums). I already have a decent recording, but wouldn't mind a few tips to try out if anyone has any! Thanks!!

Hi Sammy and welcome to TapeOp.

Here's some answers to your questions:

"I recorded my drums with my overhead tracks panned hard left and hard right with the phase inverted on each (both thru a send to Presonus phase inverter)."

Typically this is not done. Do you have a good reason as to why you had to do this?

"After recording, I solo either the left or right channels, and it's not hard left or right."

Typically, a console's Solo function will disengage the signal from the main buss, mute the mix buss, and send the signal into a mono sum called the Solo Buss (typically the same signal path as a group output or mix buss on most consoles), and send it to both left and right monitor outputs equally. Also, some DAWs allow you to configure your Solo listening situation. What are you using to monitor in Solo?

"The phase inverter definitely screws with it because with it off, I can hard pan them properly. But with the inverter off I am having phase issues, so i need to invert it."

This statement is contradictory. Please check what you wrote, as in both cases in your sentence, the inverter is off. I would not want to comment incorrectly.

Suffice to say that your overheads are being phase reversed by your box, with respect to the other microphones, which would cause their phase relationship with these other mic sources to be 180* different.

Without knowing your exact setup, I cannot really tell you what might be wrong.

Cheers

[losthighway]

A couple of things come to mind:

"In phase" usually means that the phase is coherent, there isn't weird comb filtering, the stereo image seems realistic. Basically, a lot of really abstract qualities that would suggest success to your ears. It can't really be measured because your overheads are always hearing the drums after any close mics you have. You can be certain that they are in phase with each other by using classic stereo techniques, or you can be sure that they're equidistant from the snare, or other important drums by measuring.

"Flipping the phase" means reversing the polarity. I used to not understand why people would get ornery on here about using the term phase, to say polarity, but I suppose your situation is illustrative of why many tapeoppers are particular. A 180 degree shift in the polarity doesn't really connect with the idea of wanting your drums to be "in phase" which is a game of milliseconds (microseconds?).

There are no rules with panning overhead microphones, but there are extremes- mono and hardpanned being the furthest you can go in either direction. Personally I seldom find a need to pan the two channels that far when I recorded with a spaced pair, too much width can be distracting, or cause you to lose a sense of center.

Lastly, I think your main concern in your post is not phase, polarity, or mic positioning but a specific tech question.

[Sammigz]

Thank you guys for the tips, already. And glad to be here Nick! Ill try to answer some of your questions and hopefully sort out this mess... I did update my signature with my hardware/software if it helps...

-I recorded them panned hard L&R because when the 2 tracks were solo'd, dry but still panned hard L&R, the phase meter on the main out insert was bouncing around the 0.00-0.02 range. When i inserted a mixtool (phase inverter) and sent both channels to it, i can get the range to 0.80, and it sounds better. Thought that would be the way to go but am rethinking it now lol. Any suggestions? More mic position experimenting?

-To monitor solo I listened through my headphones as well as monitors (BX5a's). And like I said, each track solo'd sounded to be a little more L or R, but still coming from both speakers. I am not understanding the solo bus and send it to both monitor outs equally. I am almost with ya, but could you elaborate a little more on that?

-And you are correct... that sentence made no sense. EDIT: With the mixtool (invert) disengaged, signal is dry, panned hard L&R, i can solo the left channel and the sound is coming from ONLY the left (shows that way on my meters too), same deal with the R side. HOWEVER, the phase is bouncing around that 0.00-0.002 mark. With the mixtool engaged, the left can still be heard in the right, and vice-versa. HOWEVER the phase is at the 0.80 mark.

-And if it helps... its a spaced pair setup. 2 Samson CO1's condensers.

I know this is a lot. So i understand if you dont get to everything. In advance, thanks a lot for whatever you do get to!

[Nick Sevilla]

Thank you guys for the tips, already. And glad to be here Nick! Ill try to answer some of your questions and hopefully sort out this mess... I did update my signature with my hardware/software if it helps...

-I recorded them panned hard L&R because when the 2 tracks were solo'd, dry but still panned hard L&R, the phase meter on the main out insert was bouncing around the 0.00-0.02 range. When i inserted a mixtool (phase inverter) and sent both channels to it, i can get the range to 0.80, and it sounds better. Thought that would be the way to go but am rethinking it now lol. Any suggestions? More mic position experimenting?

-To monitor solo I listened through my headphones as well as monitors (BX5a's). And like I said, each track solo'd sounded to be a little more L or R, but still coming from both speakers. I am not understanding the solo bus and send it to both monitor outs equally. I am almost with ya, but could you elaborate a little more on that?

-And you are correct... that sentence made no sense. EDIT: With the mixtool (invert) disengaged, signal is dry, panned hard L&R, i can solo the left channel and the sound is coming from ONLY the left (shows that way on my meters too), same deal with the R side. HOWEVER, the phase is bouncing around that 0.00-0.002 mark. With the mixtool engaged, the left can still be heard in the right, and vice-versa. HOWEVER the phase is at the 0.80 mark.

-And if it helps... its a spaced pair setup. 2 Samson CO1's condensers.

I know this is a lot. So i understand if you dont get to everything. In advance, thanks a lot for whatever you do get to!

Hi,

"Any suggestions? More mic position experimenting?"

Yes. This. In order to get the best sound, you must play around with mic positions FIRST.

Here's a quickie on how I do it:

I usually use a pair of AKG 451EB or B microphones, or other pencil condensers such as Shure SM81s. I set them up on one heavy boom stand, with a Stereo bar. I firstly place the mics with an exact 90 degree angle to each other, with the capsules almost touching each other, facing inwards. This is an XY configuration. I typically do use a square to make sure the capsules are as close to 90 degrees as possible. Once I have this locked in tightly, I move the two microphones above the drum kit, usually from behind and above the drummers head, about 2-3 feet. I ALWAYS use the -10dB pad and the filters on the mics themselves. If I am doing a more sparse song where the drums will be featured, I use the 75Hz hi pass filter, if more pop or rock, I use the 150Hz filter. As to the angle of the mic bodies with respect to the ground plane, I just position them until I get a nice balance of the entire kit, not just the cymbals.

To find the best spot for the mics, I actually do some test recordings, and center the XY Stereo image being recorded so that the Kick and Snare are as centered as possible. It is actually not that time consuming, and well worth it.

Once I have this, I then start mic'ing up the rest of the kit, starting with the kick. I play with the position of the kick until it sounds great together with the overheads. This means placing it sometimes in or out more, up or down in height, etc, until the phase of this third microphone works well IN CONJUNCTION with the overheads.

Then the rest of the mics get put up : Snare, HiHat, toms, etc. Always one at a time, and test recording and listening, until the right amount of mics is set up for the type of sounds I am going for.

Once I have the best phase relationship, there is little EQ to do, filtering out some of the low end out of the overheads, if it is still needed (depending on the song and how the kit will be played, etc.) usually a 6dB per octave hipass filter at about 200Hz sometimes, sometimes more if it requires a more processed "pop" sound, or something unusual.

As to the rest of the mics, they also get EQd before recording. Again depending on the music style, etc, I will use EQ to carve out the best sound before recording it. Again, I only EQ AFTER the phase relationships of all the mics have been established. And even then I do check and listen, because most EQs also change phase according to frequency. You have to know this before using any EQ.

Finally, I sometimes will need some compression, via my two Urei 1176s set up for Stereo operation, and only compressing about 1-2 dB, with a fast enough attack to let the transients fully through, but slow enough that it is not heard. I time the release so you do not hear it at all. Not necessarily to the tempo of the music, but to where it sounds like a natural room compression.

If I am to use a room mic, I will use a cardioid Mono, and point it AWAY from the kit. After all, this mic is to record the room. This I'll compress more, with an LA2a.

Note : I never use a phase relationship tool, I use my ears. They tell me more than a graphic display ever can.

Cheers

[Nick Sevilla]

As another quickie note:

Once you have this set up, you can actually mess with the sound of the whole kit by playing with the levels of the closer mics, and also by phase reversing them. Sometimes you have a LOT of hi hat on the overheads (happens a lot more often than you might think), so you can take the hi hat mic and reverse its phase 180*, and then creep up the level so it actually LESSENS the level of the hi hat in the overall mix.

If you have done your phase relationships correctly, this is a nice way to balance out a kit without resorting to medieval torture devices upon the drummer.

[jgimbel]

Sammy0712, we should get together, maybe I can help! I'm in Upper Darby.

[Sammigz]

Excellent. Thank you guys very very much for all the help and tips.
Im going to experiment much more with mic position this week. But a question before I get into it...

-So when recording your overheads (or full kit for that matter), do you have your OH tracks panned L&R? Or is everything recorded with the faders at 0db and all tracks down the middle? This would make more sense as far as what you said with making sure its picking up the snare and kick in the center. So im thinking i should pan them AFTER recording?

I did get quite a bit of snare in the overheads, almost too much. Ill play with the hi hat mic example you gave me with reversing the phase, just on the snare. Will that work? Again, positioning may have something to do with this.

I know there are no 'set in stone' rules with this, and each situation is unique. So i will experiment more with mic positioning, panning etc.. Everyones input has really helped out so far and made me realize a few mistakes! THANKS!


JGIMBEL: I would def be down for that! Always into meeting new people interested in the same thing and swapping ideas/tips!

[JWL]

Nick's approach above is textbook, he is very generous to share his techniques here. One can learn a lot from that.

My approach is similar, I always start off with the overheads in whatever configuration. For me it's usually the "Glyn Johns" technique or the "recorderman" technique, which means both overheads are the same distance away from the snare and the kick. This will allow you to get a very coherent stereo picture of the kit.

Then, all the other mics are placed so that they play nice with the overheads in terms of phase.

You have asked a couple times if you pan the overhead mics hard L/R. For me, this is a decision I make during the mix, but yes usually I pan the left/right. Though sometimes the Glyn Johns method means panning the top mic straight down the middle, and the other overhead near the floor tom hard left (or right). For me, the mix (and whatever else is happening in the song) will determine panning.

[Bro Shark]

I like ORTF on strereo overheads. Similar sound to X-Y but a touch wider. Still mono compatible.

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,

"-So when recording your overheads (or full kit for that matter), do you have your OH tracks panned L&R? Or is everything recorded with the faders at 0db and all tracks down the middle? This would make more sense as far as what you said with making sure its picking up the snare and kick in the center. So im thinking i should pan them AFTER recording?"

I pan it all so it sounds correct within the Stereo picture from the speakers. If your phases are right, you can pan the close mics until they "lock" into position within the Overhead Stereo image.

Usually I have the Overheads hard panned.

"I did get quite a bit of snare in the overheads, almost too much. Ill play with the hi hat mic example you gave me with reversing the phase, just on the snare. Will that work? Again, positioning may have something to do with this."

Yes. This is when you use a snare mic which is phase opposite to the overheads, and creep it in to lessen the overall level of the snare in the whole mix. Depending on how you do this, you can get up to 10-14 dB reduction just with this technique. If you need more, then rerecording with the overheads further away from the snare is the best way to go.

I'm glad some of this helps you, at least in thinking about how you approach your recording of drums.

Cheers

[Nick Sevilla]

I like ORTF on strereo overheads. Similar sound to X-Y but a touch wider. Still mono compatible.

I like it, but mostly on large tracking rooms, where you can really get a sense of space from this method.

Cheers

[blungo2]

Great thread! I also usually go with a recorderman or glyn johns type setup, usually with ribbons.

I'm longing to do a blumlein setup but i don't have matched ribbons (or other figure eight mics).

[Sammigz]

I'm glad some of this helps you, at least in thinking about how you approach your recording of drums.

Cheers

Thanks! Helps very much, I have some experimenting to do!

When you say reverse phase of snare mic, you're talking about the 57 I have on it right? I like the sound thru the 57 (so far anyway without correcting my original mistakes) but don't thru the OHs, but its so loud in the OHs, the 57 sound disappears, even bringing the fader way up. When creeping in the reverse phase, would my 57 sound stay/increase while lessening it from the OHs? That is to say I still have this issue after my adjustments. But that's a good tip anyway

1 more thing before I get down to it... You have a pair of Samson C01's and a pair of C02's.... Which do YOU use? I'm testing both, but opinions are welcome

Keep this thread going! The more info I can absorb the better!