Looking for recommendations on first outboard gear purchases

[stephenhero6]

Hi there! Glad to now be a part of the Tape Op message board.

I am a long time musician and I am just getting into engineering and home recording. I have Logic and an Apogee Quartet and because I prefer physical effects to using plug-ins I'm looking to purchase some modest outboard gear. I play rock music, I like lots of 60's and 70's rock and folk- Fleetwood Mac, Big Star, CSNY, James Taylor, Jackson Browne, Zeppelin- but I like more modern stuff too like Crowded House, Hiss Golden Messenger, Damien Jurado, and Jonathan Wilson.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with like-minded tastes what they think some good initial purchases would be- preamps, compressors, etc.- as well as any thoughts you might have on how to purchase gear. A very experienced engineer friend recommended the Focusrite ISA one.

Thanks for your time,

Sam

[Gregg Juke]

Hey Sam,

Welcome to the TOMB.

Not to not-answer-your-question or anything, but there are reams of posts on this sort of thing here already; have you done a search yet? Also, actually reading Tape OP can be real helpful for keeping up on gear; do you have a subscription?

The classic answer around here is "it depends." I guess first-off, it depends on your budget and what you're looking for (a little more specifically)... How much were you thinking on spending? How many inputs do you need to record at once? What outboard FX are you interested in (reverb, and which kind; delay, flanger, chorus filters, multi-FX boxes, etc., etc.), besides the aforementioned comps and pres??

GJ

[stephenhero6]

Thanks for the reply, Gregg.

Yeah, I figured there would already be a lot of previous posts about this stuff- I did do a quick search but I came up with a ton of stuff that wasn't very specific to my inquiry (i.e., the posts were really long and buried within them somewhere were the words "outboard gear" and "beginner." But I should just sift through it a little more, and I'm sure I'll find some info I can use. Thanks for the tip!

I do read the mag regularly, but I don't really get the impression that it covers the point I'm at, exactly- I know the differences between dynamic, condenser and ribbon mics but patch bays still boggle my mind, and even the basics of a compressor are somewhat mysterious. I appreciate the gear reviews but a lot of the model references are kind of lost on me and I don't really benefit from them.

I think for starters I'll hunt for a preamp, but I am definitely interested in eqs, reverbs, delays and other types of gear.

Thanks again for the reply!

Sam

[cale w]

If you're not too keen the ins and outs of compression, start with a dbx163. Track bass, vocals, kick and snare with it. It's incredibly simple and neat sounding, but also pretty forgiving. If you want to get the feel for outboard stuff and what it does, ART makes great inexpensive pieces that cover the whole preamp/dynamic spectrum, and are useful enough that you'll hang onto them as your tastes and budget develop. Something like the ART Pro Channel is a great way to get familiar with all the usual front-end sections (preamp, EQ, compression, de-essing, the blurry sound of starved plate tube gear) without breaking the bank.

[Gregg Juke]

+1 on just about all things ART...

GJ

[losthighway]

I would say if you think your interested in compressing out of the box, a really good, cheap box is the Symetrix 501. I still use mine all the time after six or seven years. It's a good first compressor because it has ratio, attack, release, and a sidechain input. It also has a limiting section. It can pretty much teach you what all of the settings on a compressor can do.

[vvv]

To the OP, yer original inquiry is kinda light on info for us to respond; if you could please answer tfhe rest of Mr. Juke's questions?

That said, I can certainly reco the ISA1 as a very nice, not too coloured/not too neutral and very flexible preamp; it is my fave on amp's and very good on vocals and even DI bass. Pair that with a FMR RNC and you have pretty clean recording chain; I also like the ART Pro VLA II with that pre, as well as the afore-mentioned dbx163X amongst others ...

[KennyLusk]

If you're not too keen the ins and outs of compression, start with a dbx163. Track bass, vocals, kick and snare with it. It's incredibly simple and neat sounding, but also pretty forgiving. If you want to get the feel for outboard stuff and what it does, ART makes great inexpensive pieces that cover the whole preamp/dynamic spectrum, and are useful enough that you'll hang onto them as your tastes and budget develop. Something like the ART Pro Channel is a great way to get familiar with all the usual front-end sections (preamp, EQ, compression, de-essing, the blurry sound of starved plate tube gear) without breaking the bank.

I couldn't agree more. As I was reading the thread my first thought was "channel strip" and when you're on a budget and want to experiment and learn about outboard signal chains ART boxes can be so useful. The Pro Channel also gives you the opportunity to experiment with different tubes and that's some of the most fun you can have as an artist/engineer IME.

[Jim Williams]

Analog console. That way you have something to plug the outboard into. Then learn signal flow, recording, EQ, etc.

Just like all those great AE's did.

Or, call it a day and stay ITB.

[Jeff White]

We are into the same kind of music. My advice to you is to use Logic as a tape machine. DO NOT be afraid of plug-ins. There are some incredible plug-ins out there for CHEAP that will sound as good as analog FX and go the distance. If you don't have a decent mixer/console this will end up being a bit of a nightmare due to working with latency. Take into consideration that pretty much every recording that you hear today (with the exception of Jonathan Wilson!) is a hybrid of analog and digital, hardware and plug-ins. If you have a console or mixer, you can still use plug-ins and outboard. I fall into this camp. Like you, I am looking into patch bays. I have a lot of engineer friends here in town working with big indie bands and they praise the Samson S Patch Plus (http://www.samsontech.com/samson/produc ... atch-plus/) as an easy to use and easy to setup patch bay. I am looking into getting a pair of them this year in order to hook my outboard to my console (RAMSA WR-S4424 that I am modifying).

Some plug-ins...

Best Budget Reverbs:
Vintage Verb - http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallavintageverb
Poor Plate - http://www.vacuumsound.de/plugins.html (I also like their ADT plug-in)

Echos/Delays
http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallafreqecho
http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2011/02 ... t-plugins/

Stillwell EQs and Compressors (I just fell back in love with 1973 all over again!):
http://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugins/

That should keep you busy for the next 3-6 months. Seriously. All really great stuff that can be used and abused within Logic, Digital Performer, etc.

You have 4 analog inputs/outputs? Great. Pick up 2 pairs of nice preamps. I prefer API-flavored stuff, specifically the CAPI VP26, but that will require you to buy a 500 series lunchbox to put them in. If you are good with a soldering iron, you are looking at under $275/channel with the op-amp (I use red dots). If not, I have seen them going for under $400/channel on ebay. An API lunchbox will cost you about $425 new. I paid $400 used for my Brent Averill 500-series lunchbox rack with a power supply that will power 2 racks. I plan on having at least 2 racks of 500-series stuff eventually.

Preamps that aren't 500 Series:

On the less expensive side of things, I recommend looking into a used Presonus MP20 preamp. I bought mine in 2003 and I still use it on pretty much every session. The op-amps are socketed, so you can swap them out like tubes and get a few different flavors out of them. Easy. If you can find one with Jensen transformers, awesome. If not, don't be afraid to buy one without. I still haven't put Jensens in mine. I see these ALL OF THE TIME on ebay for under $250. It's a 2-channel preamp with phantom, phase, and pad, plus excellent metering and a few other bells and whistles. It has inserts for a compressor (dbx 163X), and it sounds good. Rock solid.

I also own a Sytek MPX-4Ai w/Burr-Brown 3-4i. I paid $600 for mine used here on the TOMB back in 2006 (new they are $900?). It used to live at the Bunker in NYC. Anyway, I'm never sell it. 4 channels, Burr-Brown op-amps on channels 3-4. You'll need to pick up some inline pads (which you should have anyway), as it is 12dB of gain out of the gate. I love my Sytek and it gets used a whole lot. Just did duty for overheads (3-4) and a ribbon mic for drum room 2 weeks ago, with the CAPI VP26s (4 of them) on kick, snare, and guitar cabs.

I was looking into the focusrite octopre mkii dynamic http://us.focusrite.com/mic-pres/octopre-mkii-dynamic for a while. It would allow you to expand your Quartet via ADAT lightpipe, give you another 8 channels of preamps, and the option of running outboard preamps into it line level and then into the Quartet. A shame that the Quartet doesn't have ADAT out; you would have a total of 14 outputs for use with a console if that was the case.

Outboard compressors:

I absolutely LOVE my dbx 160X that was modified by http://www.reviveaudio.com/mods.html. I use it all of the time, lightly, while tracking vocals, horns, guitars, etc. I am looking at getting another one this year or next.

As mentioned, the dbx 163X is a great-sounding easy-to-use compressor. One slider controls the amount of compression. I own a pair of these and have an additional 5 on perma-loan.

Valley People Dynamite http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/dynamite.shtml is a killer compressor/limiter/expander/gate. I own one, and it hasn't gotten a lot of use because it is a bit noisy. I plan on having Jim Williams or someone recap/modify mine soon for use as a drum bus crush comp, etc. It's a pretty insane vintage compressor that gets nothing but great reviews. I paid $400 for mine and it's the more modern-looking stereo rack from the late 1980s I believe.

RNC Really Nice Compressor, RNLA Really Nice Leveling Amp. Sometimes I feel like the internet in 2002 was made up of 1/2 porn, 1/4 ebay, and 1/4 good reviews of the RNC. I used to have one. I sold it for my dbx 160X. These are both nice compressors, different flavors. Google.

Hit me up with any questions.

Jeff

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi Stephen,

Here is a small list of stuff to look at:

Mic preamps :

Neve (1073), API types. Lots and LOTS of clones etc out there for reasonable prices and good sounding too.

Compressors:

Urei LA2a and 1176. Again, lots os brand options, I prefer the current UAD hardware ones myself.

Effects: 1960s and 1970s Rock was all about simple setups as far as effects went:

Phasers, Flangers, Tape delays, Plate reverbs and a few Chamber reverbs.

Finally, the MOST important hands down, is the ROOM where you will be recording. It would behoove you to study this more than all the other things combined. WHich albums really tickle your fancy? Study what was done in those albums. There are so many resources now on recording, it's silly, really.

Cheers

[I'm Painting Again]

I think in this day and age all the inexpensive recording gear out there is just fantastic..something not possible in the past..you don't need any outboard gear to make a decent to good sounding record now..that said of course the fancy hardware stuff makes a better sound and could make the job easier, etc. so take it slow and don't rush if buying that type of stuff is something that you find you need to reach your goals..if you don't automatically know what you need by experience you could be wasting a lot of money..you'll have to come to the things you need by a long process of practice with making records..you could be smart about this too and make it not a waste by acquiring demo units to try from retailers or buying stuff that holds its resale value and reselling..or interning at a commercial facility for the experience..stuff like that..

try an analysis..compare your recordings to the 60's and 70's ones you like..what's different about them? then find things that fill in the missing parts of why they don't sound the same to you.. When you actually do that process then ask specific questions for example "my drums don't sound like Zep 4 - how do I go about getting that?" you'll be in a better place..

You might find that the biggest answer to those questions are not so much in the recording gear but the sound sources..the instruments and the performance..no outboard gear is going to make new drums with sharp edges and heavy bright cymbals sound like a vintage kit or make say a Yamaha or Casio sound like a Rhodes or a Wurlitzer..for examples

I'd start here because you'll never get there without the right sources..

The bands you mentioned have all been done with classic high end gear and tape recorded..to get that exact same thing going over say 8-24 channels and with the vintage instruments or modern day boutique offerings would cost a small fortune..I believe you can get pretty darn close now-a-days for cheap but it'll never be exactly a clone of that sound without some serious spending..

another thing is you have an interface with 4 ins..not many of those records where recorded on 4 track so you'll have to maybe premix your drums to achieve the same results?..tracking a whole band live and getting that vibe will be a challenge in other words if you're not doing something like that upon input..that might or might not be a problem for you..i dunno..

going by the Sound On Sound write up of the Quartet it seems like you have something almost as good quality as the highest end converters so that likely puts you in a good place for fidelity and 3d space..

if you compare the tape machines and modern digital recording offerings you come up with basically a trade off with quality and price..

the current high end converters (lavry, apogee, etc.) sound every bit as detailed as the primo tape machines of the time (without the cost and upkeep) and the only thing I've noticed I miss is what a tape machine will do to the drums (possibly other sounds too but it's not too much of a problem)..you don't get that "tape drum" sound so you have to figure out a way to recreate that with outboard or a plug-in..

going down to the level of the sound of say an Otari mx5050 you get that drum sound but you sacrifice the hi-fi sound and depth and full range recording of the classic RTR machines..like Ampex and Studer and Scully, etc. and the nicer digital systems..

so this will prob be of concern for you..getting the digital to sound like the artifacts of old analog..and your outboard as a solution is very good way of achieving that..plug-ins can get you pretty far too though..I'd bet you'll end up using a combo of the two..

question: "what's a good way to get tape compression on drums?"

a damn tape recording in the first place..or tracking through one off the repro heads to bits..the best and worst of both worlds..

solution: buy and upkeep an expensive tape machine with the authentic sound -or- buy an inexpensive machine ala mx5050 and live with the less bomabastic sound but really nice colouring

refine question: "what's a good way to get tape drums sound without tape?"

solution: plug-ins - tape saturation, comp and limiting - will get you close almost exact tone probably at the cost of the sound's "richness" and "space" - take a listen to the differences between a convolution reverb and a real EMT plate and you'll get it if you don't already..

solution : outboard - saturation, comp and limiting - more expensive - but will often retain the "richness" and "space" of sound on those classic records..

then you got mics..uber importanto..lots of folks use ribbons which give some of the things you get in the tape process..they tend to smooth highs and give a mid range presence that sounds good for tracking to digital..

the space you're recording in is pretty important as well as it will change the way your sources sound to the mics and out of the speakers..

I hope this helps and doesn't all seem too obvious..happy recording in Portland !

[The Scum]

Some of this depends on what your budget looks like.

There are some classic pieces of gear out there, that have an immediately recognizable sound. If you want that sound sometimes the easiest way is with that gear. Sadly, because it works so well, the prices are often comparatively steep...but would you prefer to pay $200 for a device you'll never really use, or $1000 for one you'll always use?

A handful of the items I'd lump in that camp:

Urei 1176
Urei La2a
Neve 1073/1084
Eventide H3000/H4000
Roland Space Echoes (or tape echoes in general)
EMT plate reverbs
ribbon mics

I'm sure not everyone will agree with this list, but those are all pieces that when I finally spent some time with them, i understood why they're still in demand.

[numberthirty]

A quick question about the outboard over plug ins comment -

Are we talking -

- While I am recording?
- While I am mixing?
- While I am recording and mixing?

Another question -

Are we talking -

- I am recording myself.
- I am recording with a band.

Another question(not trying to be a jerk) -

If you aren't up to speed on compression, are you sure you need a compressor?

As for how to buy, used.

Also, welcome to the T.O.M.B.

[numberthirty]

Come to think of it -

Are there specific sounds you believe were created with outboard effects that you are interested in some variation of in your recordings?