Greetings!
This is my first post to this board, so a brief introduction might be in order. I'm a Chicago dude, I create, collect, buy, and sell vinyl records, (and art occasionally). I'm fairly new to the world of Analog Tape, and I have LOTS of questions. After looking around at a few different tape forums, I decided that this looked like the best spot to hang out -- seems like the a chill and knowledgeable place.
My experience with analog tape is limited -- I recorded digitally for about 10 years before inheriting an Aiwa TP -1012. I used it to record jam sessions for a few years and really fell in love with tape. Then a couple of years ago I bought an Otari mx5050 2 track, and last year I snagged an MX5050 mkIII-8 track which I had fully serviced last summer but didn't have any tape, a take up reel, or a space to use it until this year.
I wanted to build an analog studio around these 2 machines and I looked around for a decent board to pair them with before finally settling on the Tascam M-512. (good choice? bad choice? -- couldn't afford a Neve or vintage EMI board and didn't really want a soundcraft spirit, or something similar like a mackie - I have a Mackie M-2600 sans power supply, and its way too much board than I need. I wanted something older with some "character" (= noisey and in need of frequent repairs ... haha))
So - I'm wondering what is the best way to connect these two machines, and what cables I should buy. I'm reading through the manuals to try and answer my own questions, but if anybody has experience with either of these machines - help and advice would be greatly appreciated.
The Otari is pin 3 hot unbalanced xlr. I believe at the present it is set to +4dbm but can be switchable to -8db. The Tascam is -10dbV unbalanced, (pin 2 hot?) but can also be patched on the back to be balanced transformerless +4 or +8 dbm. It also has polarity/phase switches on every channel. So, i'm wondering if I can just use those , or should I resolder the Otari to pin 2 hot, or just make cables? or is the switch enough? ^^ all of this info is to the best of my knowledge and I believe it to be accurate, but ... I'm new to this so I may have some things wrong.
Any of the 12 channels on the Tascam can be bussed to any or all of 8 monitor tracks. I would like those tracks to go to the inputs of the Otari and then the Outputs to go back to the board. I've already experienced some feedback issues, so i'm trying to figure out the best way to wire everything where I can switch between monitoring the input of each channel and the output from the Otari without crazy feedback issues while maintaining the correct input/output levels and polarity. I'm also going to want to be able to send this mix to the headphones so anyone that's recording can hear whats actually being recorded/ or switch to how it sounds coming out of the Otari, but I suppose i'll cross that bridge later when I figure out the wiring.
Also, I don't know jack about setting levels before I actually record. The otari has a 1kz and 10kz tone built in but im not sure what to do with that -- just record the tone at 0 ? and thats a reference point for my tape when it goes to another machine? And then just record everything around 0 by making adjustments on the Otari inputs? or using the Tascam? and what about the green srl buttons? -- I have so much to learn-- The Otari was fully serviced and calibrated by Soren Wittrup here in Chicago, but it's been moved and im using 456 tape ( I think it was calibrated for 456 at +4db? but I'm not sure , and not sure how to check)
Lot's of questions here I know -- PLEASE TO HELP -- many thanks (bows head)
Wiring an Otari MX5050 MkKIII-8 to a Tascam M-512
I took a look at a pic of the back of the M512 mixer. Looks like most connectors are RCA. You probably will eventually want to try to find the cleanest way in/out of the mixer.
Looks like you might have direct outs out on the mixer channel mic preamps?. I'd wire those RCA tip to pin three on the Otari XLR ins. And RCA ground to Otari pin 2 and pin 1. (I think these might be connected inside the machine anyway?)
There's probably line ins on mixer's RCA's as well? If so, I believe you would wire the Otari XLR outs pin 3>RCA tip, and XLR pins 2 and 1 to the RCA ground. You could check continuity between pins 1 and 2 on the Otari with a multimeter, just to verify that they're connected together already. You're dealing with an unbalanced connection on both sides.
Welcome! Looks like a good setup. Hope everything works well enough to get rolling.
Looks like you might have direct outs out on the mixer channel mic preamps?. I'd wire those RCA tip to pin three on the Otari XLR ins. And RCA ground to Otari pin 2 and pin 1. (I think these might be connected inside the machine anyway?)
There's probably line ins on mixer's RCA's as well? If so, I believe you would wire the Otari XLR outs pin 3>RCA tip, and XLR pins 2 and 1 to the RCA ground. You could check continuity between pins 1 and 2 on the Otari with a multimeter, just to verify that they're connected together already. You're dealing with an unbalanced connection on both sides.
Welcome! Looks like a good setup. Hope everything works well enough to get rolling.
Stilgar, we've got wormsign the likes of which God has never seen!
As far as aligning the MX5050, there's a lot to learn. The manual is pretty confusing concerning exactly how to measure the right level going in/out of the machine (using true RMS voltmeter, but where ground the negative lead?)
Can the mixing console generate tones? I'm lucky enough to have one that can generate 1k, 10k, and 100HZ. What I do to establish the operating level of my tape machine is I make a loop in/out of the console. For example, sending a tone out of buss 1 at 0VU, then returning that to a channel on the mixer that's routed to buss 2, also adjusted to 0VU.
Then I insert the tape machine into that loop, right after buss 1 out, so I can be sure that what's going in is what's coming out (at 1K,) and it's at a good operating level for the board. If what's going in is not what's coming out, then you adjust the tape machine's inputs via the trimmers on the back (in input mode, I think you need SRL engaged for this on the Otari)
Then you adjust the VU meters on the Otari to read 0, and then it's on to aligning the repro side, which you will want to get an MRL tape for. Using the tape in repro mode to do a quick repro level and eq adjustment for 0VU, then align repro azimuth, then re-align repro level and eq precisely. Repro side is then done, and the record electronics and azimuth can now be aligned (while recording on a fresh reel of tape and monitoring in repro, feeding tones into the machine from the console/signal generator, or computer) After the record head azimuth is adjusted, you can bias for the kind of tape you're using. Then adjust the record electronics again for flatness (now is where you adjust the low frequency compensation trimmer)
These are super over simplified instructions, and you'll definitely want to read through the manual, but might be something to help get you started. Of course, on some machines the order of operations is s little different. Like on the Ampex 440 you actually set input level last, (wha?) adding to much confusion.
Can the mixing console generate tones? I'm lucky enough to have one that can generate 1k, 10k, and 100HZ. What I do to establish the operating level of my tape machine is I make a loop in/out of the console. For example, sending a tone out of buss 1 at 0VU, then returning that to a channel on the mixer that's routed to buss 2, also adjusted to 0VU.
Then I insert the tape machine into that loop, right after buss 1 out, so I can be sure that what's going in is what's coming out (at 1K,) and it's at a good operating level for the board. If what's going in is not what's coming out, then you adjust the tape machine's inputs via the trimmers on the back (in input mode, I think you need SRL engaged for this on the Otari)
Then you adjust the VU meters on the Otari to read 0, and then it's on to aligning the repro side, which you will want to get an MRL tape for. Using the tape in repro mode to do a quick repro level and eq adjustment for 0VU, then align repro azimuth, then re-align repro level and eq precisely. Repro side is then done, and the record electronics and azimuth can now be aligned (while recording on a fresh reel of tape and monitoring in repro, feeding tones into the machine from the console/signal generator, or computer) After the record head azimuth is adjusted, you can bias for the kind of tape you're using. Then adjust the record electronics again for flatness (now is where you adjust the low frequency compensation trimmer)
These are super over simplified instructions, and you'll definitely want to read through the manual, but might be something to help get you started. Of course, on some machines the order of operations is s little different. Like on the Ampex 440 you actually set input level last, (wha?) adding to much confusion.
Stilgar, we've got wormsign the likes of which God has never seen!
I'm so glad you posted this. I'm doing the same thing with a M520 right now.
I'm thinking of going:
outboard pre & comp patchbay> mixer direct in's for submix/summing> buss out's> mx5050>second set of direct in's for final mix> stereo master out to DAW/2track
That requires some odd cabling, but I found some XLR's to RCA's on monoprice. Will they work?
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=1 ... 1&format=2
I'm thinking of going:
outboard pre & comp patchbay> mixer direct in's for submix/summing> buss out's> mx5050>second set of direct in's for final mix> stereo master out to DAW/2track
That requires some odd cabling, but I found some XLR's to RCA's on monoprice. Will they work?
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=1 ... 1&format=2
scantysound.bandcamp.com
I used a 520 for a while. Are there RCA ins on the OTARI? If so, go RCA out from the 512 to the recorder, but use as short of a cable as possible (under 20 foot). If only XLR, the best way to get from the board to the recorder would be to use the balanced outs. There are 8 balance amps available on the back of the board. I would route the 8 buss output RCAs to the balance amp inputs and then XLRs into the recorder. Then use the busses to route to the desired track.
To get back to the board from the recorder, the easiest way would be RCA out from the OTARI (if it has them) back to the tape inputs of the 512. If no RCA outputs, the 'proper' way would be to buy a box (or boxes) to convert back from +4 XLR back to -10 RCA. You would need 8 channels. These are available in various forms (Ebtech makes one for about $100 for two channels at Sweetwater). A XLR to RCA adapter may work, but you will be working with a +4 to -10 level mismatch.
To set levels between the two, the 512 should have a built in oscillator. I seem to remember it feeding a channel somehow (I can't find it in the manual), or you can patch the oscillator out jack to a channel line input. Set the oscillator to 1k, assign to all 8 busses and set them to read zero VU. Put your recorder to the input mode, set the levels to zero and you should be good to go. Levels on the console will be the same as the OTARI.
Hopefully you have a manual for the 512. I found one online at:
http://thesnowfields.com/manuals/tascam%20m520.pdf
To get back to the board from the recorder, the easiest way would be RCA out from the OTARI (if it has them) back to the tape inputs of the 512. If no RCA outputs, the 'proper' way would be to buy a box (or boxes) to convert back from +4 XLR back to -10 RCA. You would need 8 channels. These are available in various forms (Ebtech makes one for about $100 for two channels at Sweetwater). A XLR to RCA adapter may work, but you will be working with a +4 to -10 level mismatch.
To set levels between the two, the 512 should have a built in oscillator. I seem to remember it feeding a channel somehow (I can't find it in the manual), or you can patch the oscillator out jack to a channel line input. Set the oscillator to 1k, assign to all 8 busses and set them to read zero VU. Put your recorder to the input mode, set the levels to zero and you should be good to go. Levels on the console will be the same as the OTARI.
Hopefully you have a manual for the 512. I found one online at:
http://thesnowfields.com/manuals/tascam%20m520.pdf
This was VERY helpful -- many thanks -- exactly the info I was looking forpsinglet wrote:I used a 520 for a while. ... If only XLR, the best way to get from the board to the recorder would be to use the balanced outs. There are 8 balance amps available on the back of the board. I would route the 8 buss output RCAs to the balance amp inputs and then XLRs into the recorder. Then use the busses to route to the desired track.
To get back to the board from the recorder, the easiest way would be RCA out from the OTARI (if it has them) back to the tape inputs of the 512. If no RCA outputs, the 'proper' way would be to buy a box (or boxes) to convert back from +4 XLR back to -10 RCA. You would need 8 channels. These are available in various forms (Ebtech makes one for about $100 for two channels at Sweetwater). A XLR to RCA adapter may work, but you will be working with a +4 to -10 level mismatch.
I was just reading the manual and the Otari inputs and outputs can be switched from -4db to -8db with a switch on the back == Would it be possible to use the -8db setting to go back into the board? it would be a 2db mismatch ... is that close enough? would I have issues by doing this? and if so what? thanks
Don't worry about a mismatch, just try that switch when you have everything plugged in and see which setting gives you enough volume/headroom
The Otari's ins and outs (though they are XLR's) are unbalanced, so the connection from the busses of the board is still going to be unbalanced. Regardless, unless the Tascam is pin 3 hot as well (could be. My tascam tape machine is) you're still gonna have to do some monkeying around with cables, so while you're at it, try making an RCA to XLR cable and feeding the Otari with the direct outs as well to compare. Theoretically they'll be cleaner (if you can get enough level into the Otari)
In practice the buss outs may be better because maybe you'll get more gain?
If you're not a solderer already, it's really easy to learn, and will save you a shit load of money in the long run, if just for cables.
The Otari's ins and outs (though they are XLR's) are unbalanced, so the connection from the busses of the board is still going to be unbalanced. Regardless, unless the Tascam is pin 3 hot as well (could be. My tascam tape machine is) you're still gonna have to do some monkeying around with cables, so while you're at it, try making an RCA to XLR cable and feeding the Otari with the direct outs as well to compare. Theoretically they'll be cleaner (if you can get enough level into the Otari)
In practice the buss outs may be better because maybe you'll get more gain?
If you're not a solderer already, it's really easy to learn, and will save you a shit load of money in the long run, if just for cables.
Stilgar, we've got wormsign the likes of which God has never seen!
Alright bros. I got my XLR to RCA cables and went from the Otari to the 520 for mixing. Woah. Not only can I hear all the tracks when only one channel is on, but everything's distorted. I knew crosstalk was a possibility, but I didn't know it would be this much. I used the little "Repro gain" calibration pots on the Otari and brought the distortion down, but it's still being weird. Then I had to go to work. I'll try to figure stuff out on Friday.
scantysound.bandcamp.com
Bumping this thread.
I just picked up an 8 track Otari MX5050 mkIII for a good price (didn't come with snakes).
I am having the exact same issue right now with my Tascam M520 trying to get it hooked up to the Otari properly. I was getting some tracks playing even with the channels turned off and faders all the way down... wacky. I got it to sound clear but then would distort sometimes which I blame on the audio adapters I'm using. I have XLR to 1/4" adapters (tried to make use of two 1/4" to rca snakes I have lying around). My hosa snakes are unbalanced 1/4" and for me to even get sound the jacks have to be half plugged into the XLR adapters that are plugged into the back of the Otari. Probably going to flog these adapters on ebay since it's going to be a nightmare trying to work on stuff with this machine and them often falling out of place causing signal loss.
Don't bother using audio adapters. I get away with using rca female to 1/4" male adapters in my patch bay but knew the XLRs might be a little far fetched.
I had it all set up the simple way with just the first 8 channels of the M520s direct outs to the inputs of the MX5050 and the outputs of the MX5050 to the tape ins on mixer.
Before I had set it up as I mentioned above, I had tried using the busses to the inputs of the MX5050. There was no sound at all from the RCA pgm out jacks. I also use my Studer A810 2 track machine using buss 7 and 8 to the machine which is patched from the pgm out jacks to the balanced amp and then two XLRs from the BA to the Studer. Plugging the rca snake from the inputs of the Otari to the regular RCA PGM out jacks made the patch to my Studer A810 not work at all. I was getting no output to the 2 track. Can anyone tell me what happened here? No sound to both machines..
I know the M520 is set up to take a 16 track but there are only 8 XLR outs from the BA?? I know it is designed so each fader would be for two tracks each on the machine and you use the individual level knobs further up on the strip (buss 1 would be channel 1 & 9 on the 16 track, buss 2 would be channel 2 & 10 on the 16 track ETC.)
I am thinking I might just use the last 6 XLR outs from the balanced amp to go to the Otari MX5050 for the time being but I would like to have it all set up with 8 tracks (and share buss 7 and 8 with the Otari and Studer).
Any further advice to set this up?? I really do want to use the busses so I can have more flexibility and be able to assign even multiple instruments to the desired track on the tape recorder. Then monitor to the tape ins on channel 1-8 n the mixer. I don't get why I am getting no output from the busses and how the patch to my Studer stops working (working just as it did after I unplugged to Otari by the way). Am I doing something wrong?
I just picked up an 8 track Otari MX5050 mkIII for a good price (didn't come with snakes).
I am having the exact same issue right now with my Tascam M520 trying to get it hooked up to the Otari properly. I was getting some tracks playing even with the channels turned off and faders all the way down... wacky. I got it to sound clear but then would distort sometimes which I blame on the audio adapters I'm using. I have XLR to 1/4" adapters (tried to make use of two 1/4" to rca snakes I have lying around). My hosa snakes are unbalanced 1/4" and for me to even get sound the jacks have to be half plugged into the XLR adapters that are plugged into the back of the Otari. Probably going to flog these adapters on ebay since it's going to be a nightmare trying to work on stuff with this machine and them often falling out of place causing signal loss.
Don't bother using audio adapters. I get away with using rca female to 1/4" male adapters in my patch bay but knew the XLRs might be a little far fetched.
I had it all set up the simple way with just the first 8 channels of the M520s direct outs to the inputs of the MX5050 and the outputs of the MX5050 to the tape ins on mixer.
Before I had set it up as I mentioned above, I had tried using the busses to the inputs of the MX5050. There was no sound at all from the RCA pgm out jacks. I also use my Studer A810 2 track machine using buss 7 and 8 to the machine which is patched from the pgm out jacks to the balanced amp and then two XLRs from the BA to the Studer. Plugging the rca snake from the inputs of the Otari to the regular RCA PGM out jacks made the patch to my Studer A810 not work at all. I was getting no output to the 2 track. Can anyone tell me what happened here? No sound to both machines..
I know the M520 is set up to take a 16 track but there are only 8 XLR outs from the BA?? I know it is designed so each fader would be for two tracks each on the machine and you use the individual level knobs further up on the strip (buss 1 would be channel 1 & 9 on the 16 track, buss 2 would be channel 2 & 10 on the 16 track ETC.)
I am thinking I might just use the last 6 XLR outs from the balanced amp to go to the Otari MX5050 for the time being but I would like to have it all set up with 8 tracks (and share buss 7 and 8 with the Otari and Studer).
Any further advice to set this up?? I really do want to use the busses so I can have more flexibility and be able to assign even multiple instruments to the desired track on the tape recorder. Then monitor to the tape ins on channel 1-8 n the mixer. I don't get why I am getting no output from the busses and how the patch to my Studer stops working (working just as it did after I unplugged to Otari by the way). Am I doing something wrong?
Last edited by jon-519 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So I just read on another forum someone said that the PGM out jacks aren't really outputs...? So basically I would need to patch them to some other source if I wanted more than 8 outputs from the busses (balanced amp)?
Looks like I will have to go the route of using my 6 available XLR outs from the BA and the last ones used with direct outs from the mixer channels.
Looks like I will have to go the route of using my 6 available XLR outs from the BA and the last ones used with direct outs from the mixer channels.
As for the playback problem, there are four separate places the tape signal can play back, all possibly at the same time. These are the main channel in "tape' position, aux 1/2 in the 'tape' position, aux 3/4 in the 'tape' position and the monitor section in the 'tape' position. Is it possible you have more than one signal playing back at the same time?
As for the 'no signal from the busses' problem, the first place I would check would be the pgm send/rcv jacks. Make sure there are jumpers/cables in place. There will be no signal output without jumpers. BTW, this also applies to the send/rcv jacks on the inputs. No jumper will mean no signal output.
If you need XLR outputs to the Otari and the Studer, how about a XLR Y-cable to split outputs 7 and 8. Maybe not technically electrically 'proper' but should work. Did this all the time using the unbalanced outputs with rca y-cables to connect a 16-track and mixdown recorders.
The pgm outputs aren't outputs??? Don't know what they'e talking about here. The are some 'pgm' jacks above the oscillator outputs that are buss inputs, but the 'pgm out' jacks are definitely outputs.
As for the 'no signal from the busses' problem, the first place I would check would be the pgm send/rcv jacks. Make sure there are jumpers/cables in place. There will be no signal output without jumpers. BTW, this also applies to the send/rcv jacks on the inputs. No jumper will mean no signal output.
If you need XLR outputs to the Otari and the Studer, how about a XLR Y-cable to split outputs 7 and 8. Maybe not technically electrically 'proper' but should work. Did this all the time using the unbalanced outputs with rca y-cables to connect a 16-track and mixdown recorders.
The pgm outputs aren't outputs??? Don't know what they'e talking about here. The are some 'pgm' jacks above the oscillator outputs that are buss inputs, but the 'pgm out' jacks are definitely outputs.
All of the jumpers are definitely there because otherwise the busses wouldn't be passing signal at all, which they are. I had bought jumpers for them because half of them were missing when I bought the mixer.
Thanks for the suggestion of trying a splitter. I may try that... For the time being I might just use the 6 outs and then manually patch any two of those 6 busses from the balanced amp into the back inputs of the Otari. Either way I should be able to monitor the 8 tracks at once, just not record all 8 at once. Maybe just leave 2 channels for overdubbing if I'm tracking a band live.
As for the PGM outs. I have tried numerous times to use them but they just do not work. On another forum someone said that they are not actual outputs. Maybe they are designed only for Tascam tape recorders? I don't know. They all work fine when I patch them to the balanced amp but on their own there is no signal what so ever. Has anyone used one of the Tascam LA model (La-40, La-80, La-81 etc) unbalanced to balanced units? Are they the same thing as the balanced amp that is in the M512 and M520?? Maybe I can grab one of them off ebay and put it in my rack and only use it with the 8 track. It seems all kind of silly considering the MX5050 is not balanced but it seems the only way I can get the busses to feed the tape is to use the balanced amp! Argh!
Thanks for the suggestion of trying a splitter. I may try that... For the time being I might just use the 6 outs and then manually patch any two of those 6 busses from the balanced amp into the back inputs of the Otari. Either way I should be able to monitor the 8 tracks at once, just not record all 8 at once. Maybe just leave 2 channels for overdubbing if I'm tracking a band live.
As for the PGM outs. I have tried numerous times to use them but they just do not work. On another forum someone said that they are not actual outputs. Maybe they are designed only for Tascam tape recorders? I don't know. They all work fine when I patch them to the balanced amp but on their own there is no signal what so ever. Has anyone used one of the Tascam LA model (La-40, La-80, La-81 etc) unbalanced to balanced units? Are they the same thing as the balanced amp that is in the M512 and M520?? Maybe I can grab one of them off ebay and put it in my rack and only use it with the 8 track. It seems all kind of silly considering the MX5050 is not balanced but it seems the only way I can get the busses to feed the tape is to use the balanced amp! Argh!
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