Introduction to tape recording

Sammigz · Post by **Sammigz** » Mon May 05, 2014 9:22 am

Ok, so after some (really good) reading on this post, and a little more research, I think I have a better idea of this.

Im still trying to figure out WHY he would recommend this if it is such a pain in the rear.

What he wants me to look into is the Alesis ADAT machines, then i guess i would need a converter? Which would be the MX2424?
But why? Would this sound better? More inputs for a lesser price? I AM trying to record for a living, and do want to record at least 16 tracks at once at some point.

Im just wondering what this adat setup will do for me that my current digital setup cant or wont. WHAT are the benefits of recording that way. He always suggests it but never gives me a good reason as to why haha. There has to be SOME reason he's telling me this! Lol.

kevin206 · Post by **kevin206** » Mon May 05, 2014 12:38 pm

I went from a cassette 4 track, to 8track 1/4", to 16 track 1/2", to 2 ADAT blackface machines, to a DAW. I switched back and forth a little and combined some of these, also. I LIKE working with tape better, but it isn't as convenient for me. The ADATs were racked up and it got me some portability, which was nice.

If you want to do this for a living AND you are just getting started AND you have any budget limitations, I would suggest a different path. I would suggest getting REALLY good at what you do. Personally, I see the need for a few things that a lot of home studios have trouble providing...
1. Have a room available that is big enough and good sounding enough to get GREAT drum sounds,
2. Be portable and have the ability for remote tracking at practice rooms and venues.
3. Have a decent selection of good mics.
4. KNOW how to get GREAT sounds with your equipment.
5. Be able to work fast and capture the moment.

We can debate the tape vs digital thing, but recording a LOT and honing basic skills will always go a long way.

BTW, ADATs have been troublesome in my experiences and don't sound great. They can be racked up for portability, backed up (if you have at least two), you could export to computer for edits...but the old ADAT EDIT cards don't work in modern computers, you could bounce with little loss..stuff like that. You STILL had to have a console and outboard gear. You would do just as well to get a console and outboard gear and keep a DAW as the recorder.

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Mon May 05, 2014 12:44 pm

Sammy0712 wrote:Ok, so after some (really good) reading on this post, and a little more research, I think I have a better idea of this.

Im still trying to figure out WHY he would recommend this if it is such a pain in the rear.

What he wants me to look into is the Alesis ADAT machines, then i guess i would need a converter? Which would be the MX2424?
But why? Would this sound better? More inputs for a lesser price? I AM trying to record for a living, and do want to record at least 16 tracks at once at some point.

Im just wondering what this adat setup will do for me that my current digital setup cant or wont. WHAT are the benefits of recording that way. He always suggests it but never gives me a good reason as to why haha. There has to be SOME reason he's telling me this! Lol.

i can't for the life of me figure out why he's suggesting you get adats. they will be recording 1's and 0's exactly the same as your current setup, except the converters you have in your interface now are probably an order of magnitude better than what's in the adats. those things were outdated technology a decade ago.

if you want 16 tracks at once, you'd have to get two adats. and deal with syncing them up. again, it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

keep your current setup, spend the money you'd spend on adats on room treatment instead.

The Scum · Post by **The Scum** » Mon May 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Any ADATs that are around these days are 10 years old. And they're glorified VCRs. They are not robust workhorse machines.

I don't miss error #7 at all!

If you really, really want to go down that road, research the cost and availability of SVHS tape.

There has to be SOME reason he's telling me this!

You'll have to ask him directly. We think the idea is ludicrous.

Is he competing in the same market you're targeting? Is he trying to handicap you?

Sammigz · Post by **Sammigz** » Mon May 05, 2014 1:15 pm

Yea i dont know... I have a feeling I'm getting a little bit duped now. When i ask him directly, he gives me a very indirect explanation. Its frustrating.

I think I will keep my current set-up and just build from here.

Would you recommend an outboard preamp (500 series im interested in) or an outboard compressor/gate. I personally want to look into a nice preamp. The FireStudio Project preamps arent bad, but theyre not good. But then friends are telling me a really good outboard compressor/gate will be doing a lot more work than 1 preamp at this point. But my preamps are whats lacking... I dont know, Im torn!

kevin206 · Post by **kevin206** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:47 pm

I really like getting gear. I LOVE sitting around thinking of the next purchase and looking through catalogs. I doubt that your pres are lacking much. The big thing at this point is to get out there and record!!! Assess your current "tools" and see if there is anything that you ABSOLUTELY have to have to get working. I'm betting that it's probably something simple like extra mic cables, stands, headphones...something like that.

Also, if you LIKE "stuff", try offering recording for trade. You would be surprised what people have laying around. You may score FX pedals, cymbal stands, an old mixer. Heck, you may even get offered an old ADAT!

kslight · Post by **kslight** » Mon May 05, 2014 4:26 pm

I'm not really clear on what all you have, but if it were me, and I were looking to just record bands, I would start worrying about having enough halfway decent microphones (and cables and stands) and headphones to record a band, not to mention enough inputs to record a drum kit (you may think you want 16 inputs, but in the average band's practice space it is probably going to be very difficult to record a full band on 16 channels that sounds good?without a lot of prepwork and gobos at least?and then there's the fact that the band may not be good enough to play tight together in any kind of efficiency and you'll need to overdub anyway).

500 series IMHO seems like an expensive way to add preamps/etc, especially if you won't have the money in the foreseeable future to fill that chassis up. I'd look for cheap decent used pres/compressors?older dbx and Aphex will likely do just fine if you really want hardware (starting out I'd just use plugins though?).

Sammigz · Post by **Sammigz** » Mon May 05, 2014 4:38 pm

Cool. Thanks for all the advice!

See I have been recording for the past few years. Not to sound full of myself, or better than I am, but I feel like i am past the 'starting out' stage. I've been using plug-ins and while they have absolutely help with what i'm working with, I now KNOW the difference in sound of a plug-in, and a nice piece of hardware. I almost feel like it's limiting my sound now. BUT.. i digress.

I think for the time being I will let my account build a little and really think about the next step. Not a bad idea to take a little while and build up some "smalls".

kslight · Post by **kslight** » Mon May 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Sammy0712 wrote:Cool. Thanks for all the advice!

See I have been recording for the past few years. Not to sound full of myself, or better than I am, but I feel like i am past the 'starting out' stage. I've been using plug-ins and while they have absolutely help with what i'm working with, I now KNOW the difference in sound of a plug-in, and a nice piece of hardware. I almost feel like it's limiting my sound now. BUT.. i digress.

I think for the time being I will let my account build a little and really think about the next step. Not a bad idea to take a little while and build up some "smalls".

Just to be clear?my idea of "starting out" is "starting out recording on your own," without consideration of however much experience...assuming you've only got small funds to part with at the moment (and no access to a real studio or their equipment) I meant to suggest that say having 8 usable inputs (and having enough mics/cords/boring stuff?these costs can add up quite a bit) is probably more immediately useful (and thus, more likely to earn you a return on your investment, if not in cash, at least in experience) for recording bands than spending $5k on one really flashy input or processor.

Jeff White · Post by **Jeff White** » Tue May 06, 2014 8:14 am

Buying an ADAT today is akin to purchasing a fax machine.

Analog tape is cool. It's also full of headaches.

Good digital with the right front end will sound amazing.

Spend the cash on room treatment for accuracy, maybe a single really nice microphone for vocals, acoustic instruments, etc, and a nice preamp/compressor combination.

And get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Secrets-Sm ... 0240815807. It's so good. I've been doing this awhile (nearly 20 years) and I am really happy with what I have learned from Mike Senior in the past few years.

Jeff

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Wed May 07, 2014 9:48 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Sammy0712 wrote:Ok, so after some (really good) reading on this post, and a little more research, I think I have a better idea of this.

Im still trying to figure out WHY he would recommend this if it is such a pain in the rear.

What he wants me to look into is the Alesis ADAT machines, then i guess i would need a converter? Which would be the MX2424?
But why? Would this sound better? More inputs for a lesser price? I AM trying to record for a living, and do want to record at least 16 tracks at once at some point.

Im just wondering what this adat setup will do for me that my current digital setup cant or wont. WHAT are the benefits of recording that way. He always suggests it but never gives me a good reason as to why haha. There has to be SOME reason he's telling me this! Lol.
Not to sound lik too much of an asshole, but if I were you I'd be SERIOUSLY questioning the education I was receiving, and paying for. This teacher is teachine you about the USSR, The 48 United States of America, and smoking to keep your lungs healthy. He is seriously out of the loop.

ADATs have converters built in, though can use outboard for improvement. but WHY. Its antiquated and just going to be a major headache all around.
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:i can't for the life of me figure out why he's suggesting you get adats. they will be recording 1's and 0's exactly the same as your current setup, except the converters you have in your interface now are probably an order of magnitude better than what's in the adats. those things were outdated technology a decade ago.

if you want 16 tracks at once, you'd have to get two adats. and deal with syncing them up. again, it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

keep your current setup, spend the money you'd spend on adats on room treatment instead.
YES! This post hits the nail squarely on the head.

tjcasey1 · Post by **tjcasey1** » Thu May 08, 2014 2:29 am

Your teacher doesn't know what he's talking about, and purchasing an ADAT and trying to use it would be a huge step backwards. As stated earlier, ADATs are not analog tape recorders, so you don't get that warm fuzzy sound you're looking for.

You should find another teacher and stop listening to this guy.

And not to dump on analog, but someone on these boards has a great quote from Brian Eno that says (paraphrased):

"People who have a nostalgia for analog tape probably never had to use it".

Once I started using DAWs, I never looked back. I used tape once, years after abandoning it, and the first thing I re-discovered was a lack of an "undo" button. You can argue about how that can fire your creativity, but I thought it sucked.

That was the end for me.

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Thu May 08, 2014 10:16 am

i have some nostalgia for analog tape, but yeah.

way back when the earth was still cooling, i was working on this one tune, on my 8 track/mackie setup. i made the same sort of repetitive groove music then that i do now. so i had the drums on one track, bass on another, and then 6 more tracks of improvised whatever. i remember trying to mix this, and it just being impossible to keep track of where the good bits were in the improvised tracks.

and i thought "if i could just SEE where the good bits were and cut out everything else, this would be so much easier."

fast forward a couple years and voila.

and, while i do miss mixing on an actual board in real time, mixing ITB and being able to sit back and LISTEN to the mix without having to DO anything was a huge change for the better for me.

tjcasey1 · Post by **tjcasey1** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:46 pm

I should probably add that DAWs are just my personal preferences; I'm not knocking on anyone who digs working with tape.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Thu May 08, 2014 7:08 pm

tjcasey1 wrote:
Once I started using DAWs, I never looked back. I used tape once, years after abandoning it, and the first thing I re-discovered was a lack of an "undo" button. You can argue about how that can fire your creativity, but I thought it sucked.

That was the end for me.

There is totally an undo button on tape machines. It's red and makes things go away forever!

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:i have some nostalgia for analog tape, but yeah.

way back when the earth was still cooling, i was working on this one tune, on my 8 track/mackie setup. i made the same sort of repetitive groove music then that i do now. so i had the drums on one track, bass on another, and then 6 more tracks of improvised whatever. i remember trying to mix this, and it just being impossible to keep track of where the good bits were in the improvised tracks.

and i thought "if i could just SEE where the good bits were and cut out everything else, this would be so much easier."

fast forward a couple years and voila.

and, while i do miss mixing on an actual board in real time, mixing ITB and being able to sit back and LISTEN to the mix without having to DO anything was a huge change for the better for me.

I also love being able to listen without ACTIVELY mixing. Even when I got fader and mute automation on my console, I was glad to press play and go into the live room, or even out to the sidewalk, was/is great.

The visual thing is quite helpful for locating things, and when I go to tape, I do miss that.

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Introduction to tape recording

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