Overheads (hi-hat/cymbals)

[Highwatt]

Hello- Looking for thoughts/ideas on mic'ing the hi-hat vs not. I usually do not mic the hi hat and just use the overheads for hi hat and cymbals. But lately I have been wondering about mic'ing the hat separate. However, here's my observation and where I'm looking for input. When using overheads in general, the hi hats and cymbals are spilled over both left and right overheads. So here is the thing. I feel like I almost always have stereo hi hats, even though I am trying to get good separation by turning the mics as much away from each other as possible (and still capturing the kit). I am using AT Pro 37r for overheads at this point in time. Relatively tight polar pattern. So how then, when listening to recordings are the hats seemingly isolated enough to be able to pan them hard left or right (should you want to). I feel like I don't really have that option because the hat is in both overheads. Also, if I close mic the hat with a separate mic, I'm still gonna get hat in both the overheads anyway. So what are some thoughts on mic'ing hats/cymbals with having the ability to pan them without just having spill in both left and right overheads?

I understand there will be some spill inevitably. How are recordings getting so much control over panning cymbals when overheads are involved?

Would love to hear others thoughts and opinions.

Thanks so much.

Kind regards-

[Gregg Juke]

Lots of things to consider here in this not-so-simple equation. Some people really "lean-in" to the overheads and/or room mike(s), and then only use close-miking (if at all!) for enhancement. Some people tend to rely on close mikes, and use the OH's and room(s) for enhancement. I think I'm more in the latter camp; how you approach this depends on where you think you are in the above-described scenario(?).

I've never seen anybody do it (because you want a "natural" stereo picture of the kit, which is why you use stereo overheads to begin with), but, I suppose you could try something like a Jecklin disc for more separation, if that's really what you desire...

I pretty much _always_ mike the hi-hat. That doesn't mean I always use a lot of that mike in the mix (a lot of times, not much at all). But it's like using kick and overheads exclusively, it's usually almost "just perfect" (good enough). But if you need more snare, you can't turn it up (because you didn't mike it). Same thing with hat. You can't pan it, or turn it up or down, if you didn't record it to its own separate track (never mind that you're going to have some bleed into the right or left side; that's what stereo is).

My advice (and I'm sure others will make as equally a cogent argument to the opposite) would be to mike it up, and then if you don't like it, don't use it. But you'll never know if you don't try it out.

GJ

[kslight]

I'm not *usually* into miking the hi-hat, to the great dismay of my drummer?but when I do, I'll pan my overheads out and then "find" where the hi hat is in the stereo field most predominantly, and then pan the hi-hat mic there. Even when I do mic the hi-hat to please my drummer, I often find myself turning it way down or muting it when it comes time to mix. Seriously?with the way he plays, I have enough hi-hat in the overheads, room, and snare?I don't need to spotlight it LOL. I tend to use a good amount of overheads and room mic and THEN add close mics, I think miking the hi-hat is probably something preferable to people that are doing sound replacing or prefer close mics.

As a general rule I am pretty particular about panning everything as I hear it in the overheads, rather than trying to place things where they simply aren't (but still keep the overheads the same). This goes for toms, hat, etc..

A few times though I actually have used it?.but I'd say the great majority of times its a wasted track.

[vvv]

What Gregg said.

And to add a little, the distance, the mic pattern, and the aiming of the OH's can make a huge difference. And X/Y (and toe-in vs. toe-out) will sound different from spaced-pair or ORTF, and definitely different from M/S, etc.

A spaced pair, and probably even more so if super-cardoid, set close and low (and consider head-height and a few feet out front, what is what I often like to do with my AT4040's {not super-cardoid, of course}) but far apart will tend to exaggerate the spread, all things being equal.

But, for me, a HH mic is like a tom mic; I work off the OH's and then use the close mic's to reinforce the sound and location of the toms, but not to change the location. So, if you get the HH located to one side in your OH's (see above) then try placing the close mic in the same pan position.

FWIW, I don't use a HH mic with rock drummers, and when I really wanted that exaggerated HH for, say Police-type or world music stuff, the drummer hit the hats hard enuff I seldom used it then, either. That said, I found I was able to somewhat control the HH level and position with EQ, and with whether or not I chose to gate the rack-toms and snare, and ... Also, if you smash the panned OH's you can often raise the more discrete side signal in relation to the center; IOW, the hats might come up stronger to their side if you compress/limit the OH's a lot and pan them out.

Finally, I'm just a hack with a cuppla years of limited experience recording just a cuppla drummers and so YMMV if you follow any of my rambling. (Couldn't think how to put this disclaimer first, sorry.)

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I think when you're hearing really defined placement of hats and cymbals in other peoples music a big factor might be -

A) The room (as always). A well treated room means that the cymbals don't get smeared across the whole stereo field due to high's bouncing off of untreated walls and ceilings.

B) Close mics on the hats AND CYMBALS. I never close mic cymbals but I've seen it done and if I wanted really precise placement thats how I'd do it. Build the mix out of close drum and cymbal mics and then add the OH and room mics to fill in the blanks and glue it all together.

[Highwatt]

This is great! Thanks so much.

So;
>Compress/limit will help hats to be easier to place in the overall mix.
>Farther apart (perhaps spaced pair - which is what I do) exaggerates the spread (spill into both mics...Am I reading that right?)- never thought of it this way. So closer spaced overheads might actually sound like the hat is further to one side?

Also, where do you usually put the overheads, placement wise? For me, I place them more directly over the kit. One up above the hat about 7 feet pointing out toward the edge of the kit.
The other one more over the floor tom. But they are not really at all "in front" of the kit. They are very much "overhead". Would it be better to move them out more in front of the kit? Maybe closer down than 7 feet?

I have always felt as well, as pointed out, that the balance (level) of the hat in the overheads with the rest of the kit (w/o mic'ing the hat separate) always seems to sound just about right every time. I guess I'm always a little surprised by this, but it works. So I never really gave much thought to close mic'ing the hat.

Since room mics were brought up, I have tried this. But thought the same, in some regard, as overheads. As it is one mic (mono) with the entire in it. That, when added, even more enhanced the fact that the hat wasn't to one side.

I'll get there and I very much appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

I love what overheads and room mics add sonically, just really curious how about placement....with less control.

[Andrew Schneider]

Hey there,

Try a different type of mic/pre for the Hi hat to separate it from the OH's. Trashy dynamics that make the hi hat grind are always my favorite (SM57, SM7, 441 etc.).

A close mic might have not even been used in this example but it is what I always think of when putting a mic on a hi hat.

Betty Davis 1973 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEMmunAT7PA

[drumsound]

I usually don't mic the hats, because most drummers are a little top heavy, even if I'd prefer them to be more bottom heavy. If I'm working with a drummer who isn't giving me a lot of hihat, I put a mic on it. I usually use a dynamic, because I want some chunk and presence, without the ice pick to the eardrum sound that makes me dislike most miced hihats. Yesterday I worked with a drummer I also recorded 2 weeks ago. When I did ruffs for the other musicians coming in I noticed I could actually use a little more hat. So, yesterday I put a 421 on the hat and I can pepper it in as needed.

[Jarvis]

Pretty much only recording myself these days, use a mono OH and always mic the hat as often the 2 & 4 with the hat foot is the only steady beat and I need that in yer face. Also good for that compressed thick hat sound like with Elton John's drummers who rocked my young world so long ago. As GJ mentioned, I'm one of those who builds most of the kit sounds from the close mics.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

back when i used to do stereo overheads, i always did x/y because i liked the stereo imaging best that way....spaced pair never sounded right to me, and while i like the glyn johns method in general, one thing i don't like is the way the hihat images....it always seems too defined in the floor tom side mic.

anyway, now i prefer mono overhead, it's usually eyeball-height (i'm 5'9"), pointing straight down at the kick pedal.

i lean on stereo room mics (usually heavily compressed) a lot, and have gone to great lengths to tailor my playing to them, i.e. heavy on the snare, barely breathing on the hats, so the idea of micing the hats separately is crazy to me. but if you must, i think tony and andrew's advice of using a chunkier dynamic is right on. i personally hate hearing lots of fizzy top on hats (or anything else for that matter), it draws your ears away from all the important stuff in the midrange.

[Highwatt]

So here is something I never thought of, as MoreSpacecEcho mentioned.
Mono overhead with stereo room. I guess I have always thought of just the opposite. Got lots of experimenting to do.

Andrew....and see there is so little hat on the left side of that recording (great sounding kit though!). So I'm assuming this must have been built up around close mics and adding just a little of the overheads (to taste).
Interestingly enough, though seems all the cymbals (crashes, rides, etc) are far right...maybe the overheads are both (or mono) panned right as well?

Drumsound- I find I get plenty of hat from the overheads...just no flexibility to move it within the space. I suppose, too, it is fair to say that with pop music anyway, and drum machines, isolation is not a problem! And if you close mic everything and use drum replacement software, that'll give you some isolation as well.

Jarvis- I'm going to go back and listen to some older Elton John. Thanks!

[drumsound]

If I can only have stereo pair and one mono, I prefer a mono overhead and stereo room. Especially if there are tom mics, because I can get the side to side movement by panning those.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

I find I get plenty of hat from the overheads...just no flexibility to move it within the space.

do you need to move the hats that often?

for me they're either in the middle, or they're somewhere on the right (because audience perspective is the correct perspective), and they're always fine wherever they are.

[Gregg Juke]

"...because audience perspective is the correct perspective..."

Now you've gone and done it, haven't you?
And I'd-a never thunk it (MoreSpace trolling, that is).

Everyone knows that drummer's perspective is the correct perspective.

GJ

[MoreSpaceEcho]

hahahahahaha, i knew it wouldn't take long for someone to take that bait!

but i mean really...when you're listening to a record do you imagine yourself standing behind marshall stacks? no. therefore audience perspective on drums is the correct way.