Cymbals

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:21 am

A good cymbal seems hard to find at least at a reasonable price.

I've got a session coming up and I'm putting together a kit special for the record..

I have a Premier Signia Maple all restored and with fresh vintage emperors, etc.

I have a 16" K custom fast crash as a top hat and a cheap-o brand but thin and K like bottom that's really sounding like a pair of $500 + hats so this is great. and then an Istanbul 21" ride that's great but maybe a little higher in pitch than I'd like it to be.

I suppose I'm looking for your crash and ride type things that are thin and dark and quiet..low pitched..

so my questions are

Where do you go about finding your cymbals?
How are you selecting them?

really any and all information and insight about cymbals in the studio will be greatly appreciated..

help me think through this you lovely girls and boys

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:05 pm

The couple cymbals that I've bought that I've really loved have been procured by going to drum stores and hitting every cymbal with a stick. The good ones just jump right out at you. Then, you look at the price and go "oh shit." Until you find one that sounds great, and for some reason isn't a million bucks and you buy that one. Don't settle for "this one sounds OK" though, or, the best one at the store. Don't compare them to each other, compare them to the sound in your head that you're after. My favorite crash, ever, was (is?) a Paiste "signature" that I just had to buy after hitting it. I've since cracked it, and now it's just OK, but before it cracked it sounded like breaking crystal, with just the right amount of melted butter on it.

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:25 pm

I hear you..thanks

I've been going to the drum shops for a couple weeks now in the area and that seems to be the best..I think I'm going to try it with bringing the hats and ride with me in order to tune em off what I have..probably a good idea..

the online stores that let you hear the exact cymbal is pretty OK too..but its hard to really hear the actual sound and of course you can only guess about the feel and balance..

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:57 pm

i recorded a great drummer a little while back and he had a busted up ride with tons of tape on it and it actually translated pretty great for stick definition on upbeat tunes. it didn't work on more open, slow, spacious stuff though.

it's pretty context and taste specific stuff - but i find that sometime treating the cymbal or drum is key (dampening with tape, moon gels etc) too.

i am pining for a Dream Bliss ride 22.... sounds like a Constantinople kinda but half the price. nice smooth wash.

i have a K custom dark ride 22 that gets a lot of love too.

i am always after that nice stick definition without the hard edge of modern rock stuff....
but that's just me ....

what are you chasing in terms of tone? style?

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:14 pm

quiet..dark..light/thin..low pitch in general

I like the dream bliss 24" flat bell ride..the 22" paper thins sounded good too..all heard online..those particular cymbals seem to be hit or miss more than the "name" brands that go for a lot more..but i've only had limited experience there..I'm going to check some of those out in a store sort of close to here tomorrow..

I don't like the idea of treating a cymbal with tape, etc. but I've heard it work many times..

for this record the drum sound is the main course

it'll be spacey..jazz kit played a little more of a rock style..drums and organ or piano are the only instruments..so no modern rock mix to deal with..

room is decently treated more on the dead side by ear..in the mics you can hear the room come through a bit more (in a nice way)..especially with the addition of a farther away LDC with heavy compression..

drums are already mic'd and sounding good so far..

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:21 pm

I have no idea how people pick cymbals and wish I did. I'm a non drummer who's been building a kit for the studio for a few years now. Mostly by trial and error, luck and some helpful drummers.
The kit is a Roger's Holiday that I'd recorded a few times before buying. I knew it well and loved it before I purchased. Cymbals are another story. A friend gave me a set of Dream Bliss hats that are quite nice. I also have a Zilco ride that I'm quite fond of but beyond that I'm not crazy about anything. I'll be watching this thread and hoping I learn something. I dream of dark, quiet cymbals.

As far as treating cymbals goes, I've heard stories of people burying their cymbals for a few months to mellow them out. Urban myth? Who knows.

SpencerMartin · Post by **SpencerMartin** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:48 pm

This might be completely sacrilegious advice if you're taking more of a natural/jazz approach, but you might consider overdubbing cymbals. It can be difficult to get an excellent drum sound and an excellent cymbal sound from the same capture. For example, I'll be focusing on mixing a section with little happening on the cymbals and get a super huge kick/snare/tom sound (in large part due to heavily compressed room mics, or mics just a couple feet away), but then as soon as some heavy handed crash/ride playing comes along that big and beautiful sound becomes total shit... Sure, there's always a way to make it work, but I've sometimes found it easier to get a *good sound by putting T-shirts on the cymbals and having the drummer smash away on the whole kit as they normally would, and then go back and overdub a take or two of just cymbals.

*Like I said, if it's a non-clicked, live, or jazz type project, ignore everything I just said. If it's a more produced, exaggerated, tight, malleable sound you're going for then consider giving it a shot. Convincing the drummer to try that approach is another story!

Trick Fall · Post by **Trick Fall** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:13 pm

I dream of creamy cymbal sounds. No idea how to get them though.

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:24 pm

yea overdubbing the cymbals is not an option..the band requested everything live with no overdubs at all..nor would I want to do it that way for this band..I've actually never done it for a band ever..only time is with some of my own musings and a couple of folk punk type projects..

i don't really ever have a problem with the cymbals I already have mucking up the recording even when they are hit hard and loud..I guess I did when I started out and there was some really heavy and cheaper cymbals involved..but not for years..

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:39 pm

For those watching for cymbal tips..

I found one stick in my stick pile that actually lowers the pitch of my ride so significantly I could not believe it..

so there's that..

another thing is that usually the shimmery good ones even when they're on the heavier side have a very noticeable wobble and much of the time when they are hit hard they go up to a particular volume and then if you hit em harder they don't get any louder..I measured with a meter the SPL of various offerings in the stores and you know a lot of the 20-24 " ers measure the same but the apparent volumes like to the ear are all over the place..weird..then the volumes of the stick - wash - crash can be more or less balanced..it's a nightmare..

I've been listening to cymbals for the better part of two weeks now and I have to say every single good recording cymbal (imo) I've ever demoed in person or heard a clip of from the online shops were 90% of the time THE most expensive ones in the particular shop..maybe a coincidence..i dunno..I looked at the prices after to try to take away bias..

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 pm

A plane ticket to Turkey is cheaper than a good set of cymbals..

Gregg Juke · Post by **Gregg Juke** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:26 pm

You already hit on one of the things that I was going to say--choice of implements (sticks, size, bead shape, plastic tip or no-- for me it's almost certainly "no"-- or brushes, Blasticks, or mallets) is very important. As has been said over and over again-- more important is the drummer who wields them, and his/her sensitivity, musicality, and technique.

As for cymbals, I have pretty much what I'm looking for, haven't bought new in years, and would only do that if it was something absolutely extraordinary. I prefer thin, high crashes and large rides (with a variety of tones from ping-y and defined to dark and dry; not too high on "washy," but everything in its place).

Can you tell us more about the project? Is it really just piano and drums? More on the jazz/instrumental/experimental side, or in the singer-songwriter/rockish/"Ben Folds Five" bag? Or something else?

If it's the jazz/instrumental/experimental thing and it's really organic, I'd suggest listening to a couple of older recordings in that vein-- Bill Bruford and Patrick Moraz' "Music for Piano and Drums" (the first one), and Max Roach and Connie Crothers "Swish." Maybe certain things on the ECM label...

Try cymbals like you try microphones-- do "shoot-outs" using known cymbals as control sounds, and using sticks that you will use on the gig/session. If this other drummer is willing, take him/her along and let him/her play while you listen.

GJ

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:19 pm

I have a couple suggestions for cymbal buying. If you can, bring your cymbals, or if possible take them home to use with your cymbals. In stores they often have those wall displays, and those things are the absolute worst thing for judging the sound of a cymbal. Ask for a couple of stands and take the cymbals you are interested in and listen to them on stands. Once you've narrowed down you choices ask to use the cymbals on a set. Play them in context. You rarely hit a crash without also hitting the BD or SD, so do that. Bring your sticks, or use the same brand and model you use.

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:53 pm

Thanks for your insights to you both as well as the recommendations for music references.

I think a great point is the technique thing - I think that boils down to, at least partly, are if the drums fun/inspiring to play with a lot of tonal options, etc. and the drummer getting to know the kit a little and understanding how to hit it properly or optimally for the way it's set up to be captured.

I think I'll give the drummer a pair of good phones to make sure they hear what the instrument is doing before it hits the tape.

Are there any different techniques to coax a better "self mix" from the drummer's mind?

Taking the drummer to play would be great but that's not going to happen.

I really don't know what the musicians are going to do as they sent me demos that are pretty crumby but I have a general idea. It's not jazz drumming it's more like halfway between rock and jazz. They go quiet - loud - quiet

Post punk might be a term to describe the style. Quite consonant tonally.

Then one of these three instruments: (sometimes times two between player's two hands) - electric piano / organ / weird sounds

I'm setting up a giant amazing early 70's Fender Bassman cabinet powered by an orange head for these things primarily. Also there will be a secondary rig in another room for a second sound or left hand / right hand options if need be and just a clean PA type thing as well as a direct injection tap.

Nothing more than that is involved with their music.

The sound really isn't a problem though just need to find a couple of cymbals to complete this particular kit's sound. It's already set up (sans a cymbal or two) and sounding fantastic. I wanted to start a conversation about recording cymbals because I thought that would make for a more diverse and dynamic thread.

I'm shooting for a direct to 2 track tape recording (Ampex 440) of a completely live performance. I'll have it routed through 8 tracks Dan Lavry's conversion if I can't pull off a mix I like initially.

There's a five mic drum setup. Senn e602 on the resonant bass drum head then an RE-20 betwixt the middle tom and floor tom slightly below the rim pointed at the snare/90deg to batter bass drum head and an sm57 betwixt the snare and high tom pointing at the floor tom/90 deg to batter bass drum head, a mono OH pointing at snare (beyer m160) and a c12 type tube LDC as a room mic through a distressor and a 418a

I know y'all love these details so I'm happy to share

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:17 am

Many used to go to the factory to pick them out, they used to allow that.
Otherwise, any from the 1960's are a great find if they havn't been damaged.

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