that drum fill at the end of (Just Like) Starting Over

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lysander
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that drum fill at the end of (Just Like) Starting Over

Post by lysander » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:20 pm

So my brother, a drummer, asked me the other day about this fill. If you follow the tempo it doesn't come in on the beat. Is that because there's a tape edit in there, or maybe because they used actual reel flanging that might have messed with the tempo on tape? Anybody have any ideas as to why it's not in time?

And then there's that fill at the end of Melt with You by Modern English. I'll never figure that one out.

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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:11 pm

OK, after a few very quick re-listens to each of the aforementioned tracks; my personal assessment is: 1) On the Lennon thing, it's really in time, but the delay setting monks it up a bit. It could be an edit, but I'm willing to bet that there was nothing wrong with the drum track itself... Jim Keltner, after all, wasn't it? 2) Stop the World and Melt and Stuff-- (shuddering...)-- I think that's an edit, because they couldn't play, and they couldn't count (listen to the breakdown with the bass licks and "mmm-mm-mms" that sets-up the "drum fill;" all out of time and rushed)...

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Post by lysander » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:58 am

Thanks! Yeah, the Modern English one is pretty wild -- like you say, they're completely out of time, and yet they all come in together, so it's probably an edit.

The Lennon song is Andy Newmark (starting over probably included finding a new drummer who wasn't an old party friend). The first time I counted through that break it worked, and then it failed for me every time after that, so maybe you're right, it could be an effect of the delay confusing me. Thanks for your response!

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Post by drumsound » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:50 am

On Starting Over the intro is rubato, with a loose tempo like a classical piece. The snare drum establishes the temp for the song once the band is in.

On Melt With You the fill starts on the AND of 3 and is +a4E+a. The brake down does drag a bit. They probably didn't cut with a click, but probably did cut the basics with bass, drums and guitar so everyone came back in together.

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Post by Gregg Juke » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:57 am

Unintentional double-post deleted.

GJ
Last edited by Gregg Juke on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gregg Juke » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:58 am

OK, good call Tony. I listened again, and if you start counting "4s" when they go to the tom-tom thing (before the breakdown), it does come out in-time (the bass part in the breakdown is a bit funky; it starts on "1," then on an upbeat, then "1" again, then an upbeat). So the fill does bring everybody back in on the "1" again, but to me the whole thing still sounds loose-y goose-y.

Tony, on the Lennon thing, OP is talking about the fill at the end, not the beginning ("Let's take a chance and fly away, some-where......"). Listening to it today, I'm not sure it isn't an edit! It sounds like a 5 or 6 beat measure, rather than 4. Give it a listen and see what you think...

I'm not patient enough to transcribe these two tunes right now, but I know someone who will if we need to go that far (Lysander--Are you just curious, or are you really trying to bust these tunes for a band thing?).

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Post by lysander » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:47 am

Hi Gregg, just curious, really. The Modern English one has bothered me since the song first came out, so thanks for the explanation, you two!

Although I am referring to the fill near the end of the Lennon song, Tony's bringing in the opening does provide some interesting context. The song starts with that talky opening, and then on cue Newmark gets the band going with the main tempo. Maybe the same thing is happening at the end? That might help explain the particular nature of the fill at the end, which is long enough and regular enough in its triplets that it can re-establish the tempo for everyone before they join back in.

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Post by JGriffin » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:15 pm

lysander wrote: The Lennon song is Andy Newmark (starting over probably included finding a new drummer who wasn't an old party friend).
From what I've read (in a few places, but notably Tony Levin's book) was that Yoko was insistent that none of John's old drink/drug buddies work on the record.
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Post by DrummerMan » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:35 pm

To me these both sound like nothing more complicated than a case of "drummer calls in the next section" whenever they think is appropriate. Not to get all old and crotchety sounding, but....You see, SONNY, music wasn't always recorded to a grid... :), but of course you all know that.

JUST LIKE STARTING OVER
Image
The break seems like it's meant to feel like the end of the song, but surprise! it starts back up again, hence not coming in exactly as if you kept counting from the beginning of the break. It's a long and pretty solidly tempo-defining fill so can't see that there would be any problem there.


MELT WITH YOU
Image
My main guess here is they played the breakdown together and the drummer just got ahead of himself/everybody else. This theory is supported by slightly not-together entrance of the rest of the band with him. This could be either by accident and how they always did it, by accident and the first time because of whatever was going on in the studio, or totally on purpose (throwing things off a bit is a valid kind of artistic expression).


Anyway, my 2 cents...
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Post by Gregg Juke » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:14 pm

So Geoff, if I read your notes and your prose correctly, you'd be saying that we should probably put some "railroad tracks" or a "birds-eye" between your first set of figures (6 of the 12/8's) and the second set (the second 6), yes? Also, re: "Melt with You," the note high-lighted in blue is where you think they come in/fudge the "1?" Or something different?

No "grids" back then, but of course click-tracks were in full-swing, so to speak. Obviously they didn't use one though!

Hey, did I already ask you awhile back if you're related to Ed Mann?

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Post by drumsound » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:06 pm

Gregg Juke wrote:OK, good call Tony. I listened again, and if you start counting "4s" when they go to the tom-tom thing (before the breakdown), it does come out in-time (the bass part in the breakdown is a bit funky; it starts on "1," then on an upbeat, then "1" again, then an upbeat). So the fill does bring everybody back in on the "1" again, but to me the whole thing still sounds loose-y goose-y.
That one always seemed really clear to me. I listened to check but I knew right where it fell. I played that tune in college. The keyboard player had a good time making shit up in those echo'y backgrounds. :)
Gregg Juke wrote:Tony, on the Lennon thing, OP is talking about the fill at the end, not the beginning ("Let's take a chance and fly away, some-where......"). Listening to it today, I'm not sure it isn't an edit! It sounds like a 5 or 6 beat measure, rather than 4. Give it a listen and see what you think...


GJ
D'OH!

I think the tape delay is what's fucking with people.
DrummerMan wrote:To me these both sound like nothing more complicated than a case of "drummer calls in the next section" whenever they think is appropriate. Not to get all old and crotchety sounding, but....You see, SONNY, music wasn't always recorded to a grid... :), but of course you all know that.

JUST LIKE STARTING OVER
Image
The break seems like it's meant to feel like the end of the song, but surprise! it starts back up again, hence not coming in exactly as if you kept counting from the beginning of the break. It's a long and pretty solidly tempo-defining fill so can't see that there would be any problem there.


MELT WITH YOU
Image
My main guess here is they played the breakdown together and the drummer just got ahead of himself/everybody else. This theory is supported by slightly not-together entrance of the rest of the band with him. This could be either by accident and how they always did it, by accident and the first time because of whatever was going on in the studio, or totally on purpose (throwing things off a bit is a valid kind of artistic expression).


Anyway, my 2 cents...
Well put.

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Post by DrummerMan » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:15 pm

Gregg Juke wrote:So Geoff, if I read your notes and your prose correctly, you'd be saying that we should probably put some "railroad tracks" or a "birds-eye" between your first set of figures (6 of the 12/8's) and the second set (the second 6), yes?
No. As far as my ears tell me, once the fill starts it's just as I've written it pretty straightforward and spot on tempo. You'd put a fermata (birdseye) on the second half of the word "some-WHERE", if you were writing out a full chart.

Also, re: "Melt with You," the note high-lighted in blue is where you think they come in/fudge the "1?" Or something different?

The highlighted note was just where the cursor was when I took the screen shot, nothing else implied. They play the one at the same time, it just feels like the acoustic guitar and the bass are just slightly in different places, which would be perfectly reasonable with such a short fill that comes in unexpectedly.


Hey, did I already ask you awhile back if you're related to Ed Mann?
I don't remember you asking me, but no, I'm not...
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Post by Professor T » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:25 pm

DrummerMan wrote:The break seems like it's meant to feel like the end of the song, but surprise! it starts back up again...
So, what your saying is, it feels just like starting over?

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Post by DrummerMan » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:47 pm

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Post by drumsound » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:00 pm

Well played, boys!

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