Overdubbed cymbals

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MoreSpaceEcho
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:54 pm

i'm taking your cymbals but i'll give you the low E on my guitar and the G from my bass.

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Post by ashcat_lt » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:17 am

Gregg Juke wrote:AND-- No more C chords. No G or E either.
"We're playing in the key of C#." Or in my case, the Whole Tone scale. ;)

I very often end up playing exactly one string per guitar track, restricting a given track to a single position on the neck, this bass plays only the bottom octave and that one plays melodies not rhythm.

The fact of the matter is that if everybody just goes off playing whatever the hell they want whenever the hell they want it can end up in a huge nasty wank fest pretty quick. Everybody involved needs to have a perspective on the end goal and play appropriately. If we're playing a country ballad you damn well better not go playing chunking power chords, and if we're playing metal you should probably play something other than oompah bass.

The thing is that the top octave is a very precious space and must be treated very carefully and thoughtfully. Most of what hits that top octave in a typical mix comes from the drums and everything with any hang time (sustain) up there is cymbals. A good drummer knows this and understands that he has the power to make or break a mix, that this is an important responsibility and is able to use restraint and taste.

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Post by ashcat_lt » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:18 am

Double post. Sorry. :(
Last edited by ashcat_lt on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jarvis
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Post by Jarvis » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:22 pm

I think we can all agree now that the drumset is a very complex instrument and very hard to master and that all our previous drummer jokes are uncalled for and very hurtful. A big apology is in order and no one gets any sex until that happens.
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Post by floid » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:36 pm

I find that if I use Japanese whiteoak 55a's as q-tips, something about the wax coating really brings the best out of my cymples. Drubby.
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Jarvis
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Post by Jarvis » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:27 pm

Have you ever inserted one of those big ball tipped marching sticks into your urethra, i don't recommend it.
Not meaning to derail this thread...
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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:42 pm

Not meaning to really derail this thread, but how old are you, Jarvis?

When you get to a certain age, your urologist is going to give you a test very similar to what you described above. Enjoy.

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Post by drumsound » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:51 pm

I sat on a panel with Eric Valentine a couple years ago. The separate cymbals was a production aesthetic that came from the bandleader (Josh Homme) that he, the producer, was glad to try. The drummer was Dave Grohl, who was also happy to try. They were recording on an Ampex 2" machine, and used electronic cymbals as a guide while tracking. Overdubbing the cymbals was quite difficult, and required a lot of rolling back and punching in when something wasn't quite on with a BD or SD accent. Eric Valentine said that was the only time he'd seen Grohl get angry or frustrated. Part way through the cymbal overdubbing phase they decided to transfer and continue in Pro Tools so edit for timing would be simply achieved. Its an intense process, unless the drumming is quite simple.

I'm not sure if they overdubbed cymbals on Them Crooked Vultures or not.
Gregg Juke wrote:Hrrmm. You guys are really opening a can of worms that probably would best remain sealed.

Space, you assume that the songwriter "knows best." That is certainly situational; I point to 50% of the threads here and ask that the readers make-up their own mind.

And while both of you have interesting (but I believe ultimately skewed) perspectives on the "no cymbals" topic, I don't believe it is in the spirit you are characterizing it at all, but to indulge your devil's-advocate position, here are some analogues to ponder:

* "I only want you to use two of the valves on your trumpet; NEVER three."

* "Please do not slide the slide on the slide trombone. It takes-up too many of my pitchy-pitches. Play first-position only; you'll make due and come up with something creative."

* To the singer-- "Only rap, please, or at best rhythmic chanting. I do not want any intoned pitches from the vocals... But, you'know man, do your own thing, be creative. Unless it's singing. Then don't do it at all."

* To the turntablist-- "Please only scratch forward, never back. And only use the cross-fader every third scratch. It's disorienting visually."

* (ok vvv, we'll use your examples)-- "To the Heavy Metal guitarist-- No distortion, please. I want a HEAVY sound, but you'll have to make it with a Joe Pass tone. Mind over matter, dude."

* Bassist-- "Only play one string please. The others are part of the instrument, but I want you to ignore them. They take up too much of the bass register that I want to reserve for other sounds."

And on and on and on. No, I think you are both mistaken here!

GJ
I agree that the drumset is one instrument, but it is a VERY fluid instrument. Comparing it to a standard guitar or trombone is pushing the envelope a tad. The drumset changes as needed, with different players and different situations. So asking for less cymbals, different cymbals, swapping a snare or making for more or less toms is completely valid.

I think your comparisons of "don't use the A string, or only play first position" are off. I think comparing asking a drummer to limit cymbal use (or whatever) is more like asking something specific of an arranger, "I'd prefer no strings on this soundtrack" or "can we use steel guitar as a element of tension?" is more on par.
roscoenyc wrote:I don't want my point to be construed as I'm anti-cymbals.

When used sparingly they can and should be exciting.

Yes they are part of the drum kit!

My late mentor/recording guru Lou Whitney would have the drummer bring in his favorite hit record. Sit the kid down with a legal pad and a pencil and have him make a hash mark every time a crash cymbal was hit.

It was almost always a really eye opening exersize for the drummer. Usually way way less crashes than the guy would have thought before actually counting them.
What would happen if the young drummer brought in a Who record? ;)
roscoenyc wrote:You don't have to bash a crash cymbal every time the lick comes in, every time it goes into the verse, every time it goes into the b-section, every time it goes into the chorus and the repeat chorus and the guitar solo and the outro.

Truly is a less is more thing. When you have an inexperienced guy in your studio it's tough. You have to pick your battles with him. Getting him to change one thing might be all you get.

Those recordings with near to no cymbals on them are good to play for drummers 'cause they start to hear how their instrument can bloom on a record if they aren't bashing the cymbals the whole time.
I agree with this. I played remotely on a record a few years ago. The songwriter/artist kept asking me to hit a crash on each chord change. I'd never instinctively do that, and I don't particularly like the way it turned out, but it was his record. I hit the cymbals with each chord change and each section change. He loved it. Its his record, and that was my job.
Last edited by drumsound on Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by vvv » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:16 pm

When I started on drum machines, and continued on loops, I always felt that a fill (usually containing crashes because, hell, it was a fill!) was requisite.

And I've worked with drummers, drummers mind you, who needed the fills to count the measures - those guys always hadda use crashes then, also.

That said, I love the king of hats, a/k/a Stewart Copeland, and yep, the king of crashes, (R.I.P.) Keith Moon.
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:26 pm

for a good time, put on def lep's 'hysteria' and count the crashes.

thousands.

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Post by drumsound » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:31 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:for a good time, put on def lep's 'hysteria' and count the crashes.

thousands.
Dude, its NEVER a good time to put on Hysteria.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:26 pm

"I've spoken my piece, and counted to three..."

GJ
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Post by vvv » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:50 am

drumsound wrote:
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:for a good time, put on def lep's 'hysteria' and count the crashes.

thousands.
Dude, its NEVER a good time to put on Hysteria.
Except I can think of one scenario, with the right girl and a cup of sugar ...
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MoreSpaceEcho
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:18 am

hysteria is quite entertaining, and worthy of study.

BELIEVE IT.

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Gregg Juke
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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:39 am

>>>>BELIEVE IT.<<<<

Now THAT'S a good album!!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Believe-It-Tony-W ... B0001O2BY8

GJ
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