recording live bands/drummer who sings

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

Post Reply
cstocker77
alignin' 24-trk
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 pm
Location: Detroit Michigan
Contact:

recording live bands/drummer who sings

Post by cstocker77 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:32 am

I've been recording bands playing live, in various types of venues, sometime practice spaces, sometimes real venues, junk shops, churches, etc. It's for a youtube TV show, the host is a local Detroit journalist, who likes to talk to bands and artist around town.

I recently had a band who's drummer sang back up vocals. I'm wondering if anyone has some advice on particular microphones and signal chains, that would help give me a little better control and isolation over that vocal. I'm sure it would help with all the vocal mics. I've experimented with gates, and different mic patterns, but these sessions are on the fly, quick, not a lot of time to try things, it's basically, put em up and let it fly, within 10-15 minutes.

Every time I sit to mix one of these songs, I have to remind myself over and over again that this is live, there is always gonna be some bleed, it's gonna sound messy, and i should embrace it. But I know some of you out there have tricks to make this a little better.

Thanks.

mn412
gimme a little kick & snare
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:53 pm

Post by mn412 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:49 pm

My first choice if I could have any mic would be a Beyer m88. I'd be fine with a 57/58 to though.

Your not going to be in control over the isolation. I bet 9 times out of 10 you position the mic to reject the kit the drummer will move it to be more comfortable singing. At least hat happens to me all the time.

I would youtube some videos of Levon Helm. He wasn't just singing backups he was singing leads and kicking ass on the drums at the same time.

wren
suffering 'studio suck'
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:50 pm
Location: Central VA
Contact:

Post by wren » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:17 pm

This might be totally unhelpful because it's not suggesting a specific technique, but:

One of my biggest "aha"/"why-didn't-I-think-of-that" moments regarding microphones was at a DPA workshop I went to - the rep/tech was discussing isolation, polar pattern choice, etc., and at the end of that he said something like, "But if there's going to be some bleed, I'd almost always rather have more bleed that sounds good than less bleed that sounds bad."

And I agree with what mn412 said: I'd bet money that the drummer's just going to reposition the mic to make it comfortable for him regardless of where/how you point it. So rather than shoot for maximum isolation, I'd try experimenting to see which mics have more uniform off-axis responses and/or give you bleed that sounds less bad. (And it's probably not going to be a 58.)
"I don't need time, I need a deadline." -Duke Ellington

"I liked the holes in it as much as I liked what was in them." -Tom Waits

Burnt Ernie
steve albini likes it
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:38 pm
Location: minneapolis

Post by Burnt Ernie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:32 pm

+1 on a silver m88. I've often used a beta 56,since it rejects pretty well,is fairly directional,and is small,so you can point it right at drummers mouth. Also had good luck with 57/58's. I definitely spend more time on getting drum monitor/wedge pointed in a sweet spot,and making sure drummer isn't fighting to hear/pitch . Another thing- embrace the bleed at the expense of your overheads. I've found playing around with attack times and ratios on snare and vocal compression can get you a pretty decent overall drum "room" sound,while keeping the vocals upfront.
I am the Walnut

standup
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Post by standup » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:48 pm

My favorite mic on snare right now is EV 408. It rejects hi hat very, very well. If you used one (or the more recent 468) for vocals, it might have a decent sound.

cgarges
zen recordist
Posts: 10890
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:26 am
Location: Charlotte, NC
Contact:

Post by cgarges » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:29 am

I was going to recommend the M88, as well. I've recorded a handful of "live" sessions with drummers singing and that mic seems to be the right choice for a combination of good vocal sound, good extra drum kit sound, and enough isolation to make level adjustments work in a reasonable way. I've also used Sennheiser 441s and when they're not too bright, they can work well for this, too. But the M88 is the usual winner. Unless it sounds terrible on the vocals, try to think about what is going to sound best for the drums (in terms of what bleed IS there) and you'll be in better shape.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Jim Williams
tinnitus
Posts: 1135
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:19 am
Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA
Contact:

Post by Jim Williams » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:17 am

I've worked with lead singing drummers since 1970. I found a few things that work out great.

Avoid any condenser vocal mics like Neumann 105's or my fave, the AKG 535. Those will pick up way too much cymbal leakage.

An older SM58 Unidyne III always works and sounds great, even for album recording. Newer Juarez made models don't sound very good.

By far the best results I've had is the Shure Beta 58. Better off axis rejection, tighter pattern, great hf reproduction. Use a fast mic pre and they will have condenser qualities without the problems.
Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

User avatar
A.David.MacKinnon
ears didn't survive the freeze
Posts: 3819
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 5:57 am
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:49 am

Jim Williams wrote: By far the best results I've had is the Shure Beta 58. Better off axis rejection, tighter pattern, great hf reproduction. Use a fast mic pre and they will have condenser qualities without the problems.
I just did a session for an afro-cuban rock band. 8 players live off the floor. The conga player sang the guide vocal. I used a beta 58 and was amazed at the minimal bleed. My room is really live and he was playing congas, sitting next to the timbale player and facing a full kit and very loud drummer. If the vocal performance was a keeper I'm pretty sure I could have easily made it work in a mix. I used an M88 on one of the other singers and that one was quite good too. It had more spill than the beta 58 but that might have had more to do with where he was in the room.

If you can find one a Beyer M700(N) might be better than the M88 for live vocals. It's a really, really great sounding mic and it's got a super tight pattern. I've used it for guide vocals very close to the drums and the spill is amazingly minimal.

Injured Ear
alignin' 24-trk
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:14 pm
Location: Western NY

Post by Injured Ear » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:00 pm

Another +1 for Beta 56. The 90? shape of the mic/XLR helps get it closer to the drummer's face without getting in the way.

Other tricks I've done to deal with drummer bgvs.
1) You can often get away with more serious lopping off of top/bottom end on a BGV than you could with a lead vocal. Don't be afraid to eq it more than you normally would.
2) You obviously need less hat and snare mic than usual in the mix.
3) You can try setting a compressor to duck on the vocal mic when the snare hits (sidechain the snare to the compressor detector). Keeps the snare a little more present.

Jim Williams
tinnitus
Posts: 1135
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:19 am
Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA
Contact:

Post by Jim Williams » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:53 am

Position the mic so the rear faces the ride cymbal. You will get better rejection of that leakage.
Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

The Scum
moves faders with mind
Posts: 2745
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:26 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Contact:

Post by The Scum » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:20 am

"We do feature normally Keith Moon singing, but today we'll just have to feature him."
"What fer?"
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."

cstocker77
alignin' 24-trk
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 pm
Location: Detroit Michigan
Contact:

lots of good info here

Post by cstocker77 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:18 am

Thanks folks for all of your suggestions and advice. I'm grateful for what seems to be everyone's knowledge and expertise on the subject. Lot's great mic options discussed here, as well as a few things about placement, and philosophy on how to use the inevitable bleed. It seems to be a good subject to discuss, and a common issue.

I'm very excited about having a regular gig recording live bands for the show. It's a new objective. It has different properties than recording in a controlled environment. A junk shop, or an old abandoned church are anything but controlled.

I was surprised not a single person mentioned using a GATE in their signal chain.

Keep it coming, if you got more?

Thanks again.

Jim Williams
tinnitus
Posts: 1135
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:19 am
Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA
Contact:

Post by Jim Williams » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:13 am

Gates will false fire from drum hits. Everytime they smack them good you let out a blast of drum noise.
Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

User avatar
Recycled_Brains
resurrected
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: lots of good info here

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:33 am

cstocker77 wrote:
I was surprised not a single person mentioned using a GATE in their signal chain.

Keep it coming, if you got more?

Thanks again.
I never have good luck with gates in a DAW. Always mis-firing. You could manually edit out the space in between vocals. That's how I address things like this when needed.

An expander might be worth trying as well. Have it open up when the person is singing, back off when it's just drums. Set it so that when the volume lowers, it sounds nice blended with the rest of your drum mics. That might mis-fire too, but if it would likely mis-fire from the snare, so if the snare sounds good in that mic mixed with the others, then that wouldn't be a bad thing if you set the threshold, etc. the right way.

I had one session where I had to mic the drummer for vocals. Luckily he was just shouting here and there, and the overheads picked it up plenty, cause the 57 (only mic i had left) I put up for his vocal sounded like dogshit.
Ryan Slowey
Albany, NY

http://maggotbrainny.bandcamp.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 88 guests