my mixes are hurting my earballs!

[brightpavilions]

Hello folks,

Like many of us, I'm self-recording at home. Is it Abbey Road? Nope. Can it get the job done. Yep! I'm perfectly happy with an "at home" aesthetic and for this music it works well. The bed tracks are your typical "rock" band (drums, bass, guitar, vox).
More specific gear info is below.

While this isn't my first time recording and mixing in a very similar setup, I would never claim to be an engineer. I'm simply trying to capture the songs the best I can. But I'm running into a perplexing and frustrating issue with these particular sessions as I'm tracking and starting to rough mix.

I am experiencing ear fatigue and even inner ear pain/discomfort after a mix session and also when listening back on my stereo system and (particularly) earbuds. It isn't one particular song, but I've only been working on a few tunes for a coupe weeks or so now trying to get "the mix." This is unique to my mixes, not other music I may be listening to.

I'm not overly processing; some compression on the vocals, bass, kick and snare. Reverb to taste and EQ on tracks. Nothing on the mix buss (like compression or limiting.)

I have a couple guesses on what might be going on but I'm looking for some advice.

Guess one: I have a feeling I'm somehow building up particular frequencies in the mix. Probably the mid-highs since these seem to be what I'm most sensitive to. Additionally, so far the mixes have felt a bit dull on the larger speakers.

There's a mono overhead on the drums and I'm cutting a lot off the top to tame the high hats but keep the toms present. The electric guitars are "bright" but I think in some instances are a bit harsh. And vocals, well those tend to sit in the mid-range at least with my voice. Main culprit guesses though are those guitars and the OH mic.

Second guess: something to do with my mix setup. Tracks have been recorded with plenty of headroom (around -15db average) not even close to clipping. Monitor volume can get loud, but I try to be conscience of the volume.

I buss all tracks to a submix so that I can add plugins down the road (tape sat, compression etc.) when I'm mixing more finally and accurately and not have to worry about the master being post fader. However, to boost the over all volume of the final mix, I've got the the "submix" +6bd heading into the master fader. No peaking, but still makes it louder to compare with commercial mixes. But, just because the lights aren't red doesn't mean it's not cranking too much right?

Those are my ideas, but I'd love to hear any feedback and thoughts on what might be going on. While a bit apprehensive (you know how us musicians can get precious about sharing non-final stuff) I'd consider sending a file of a mix directly to you if you're inclined to give a listen and try to troubleshoot.

While this post isn't necessarily about the gear here's what's going on there:

Songs are tracked into Pro Tools via a Focusrite Scarlett series interface (24/96). I have some decent mics and some ****ty ones. My monitors aren't great (KRK Rokit 6) and I'm in a garage doing everything.

Thanks!

[losthighway]

My first two questions would be if you're boosting eq a lot, especially in the mid/upper range. Second, are you using cheap condensers much (MXL, Rode) on electric guitar, vocals, overheads?

You said the mixes are dull on home stereos, but you also said they are fatiguing, right? I suppose there can still be clutter, or fog, in a mix that has some harsh frequencies. Many people, or at least me, start off on their learning curve trying to mostly add brightness for clarity, and then find it's more of a trick of cutting fat from different places. Not sure if that's your mix, but some common culprits.

[Krackle]

Bright..

Do some playing around with an EQ on your 2 buss just to test things out in a broad and general way..a test

My suggestion would be to go right to the 1k (plus or minus) and into the 2k areas..and pull down a bit, sweep that curve a bit..then, pull down a lot..see if you start to feel that 'annoyance' change or get 'better'

Of course build up in the highs can do this but I find almost across the board that 1k-2k is where that fatigue is..

Folks are always trying to emphasize the 'mids' these days..but the upper mids in this area can be excruciating..especially with guitar sounds - and need definite attention. There IS a reason why the 'mid scoop' became a thing..because it's a hot zone where there are lots of things going on..mud, good stuff, excruciating stuff, on and on..IMO great mixers know how to deal properly in the midrange.

If you find some relief by pulling down in this area on your 2 buss..Then shut that EQ off and go back into your separate tracks and see if you can sort out what's happening in this area...if you have electric guitar tracks..go there first and pull some curves down a bit and listen..do it in the context of the mix but also solo those tracks and see if you actually hear it out of context..If you can't hear it out of context?..maybe you're getting some weird phase issues across the palette..

Also..just listen to your instruments in and out of the mix..take an EQ point and do a slight boost..track to track and just listen for objectionable stuff.stuff that hurts....locate it and get to know where these annoying frequencies reside and with what instruments they are associated with..etc. Some mix folks like to feature the juicy great sounding frequency ranges of particular instruments..the power zones etc..and drop the of the crappy stuff..small move will get you there if your stuff was recorded decently..but remember that it's a 'mix' so always check yourself in the context of the mix after solo listening and working..sometimes objectionable stuff gets balanced appropriately by other sounds..it's an interesting thing that way.

[vvv]

My thoughts:

Turn down. Better?

Especially turn down, or even stop using, the "earbuds" - it's hard to accurately judge the levels of those, particularly after a few minutes. (Side story but on-topic: I have occasion to have to speak and listen in public places and find that using earphones or earbuds in the hours before make that more difficult.)

Try mixing other material. Same issues?

Use reference mixes.

Try a mix without guitars, with 1/2 the guitars or the guitars at very reduced levels. Better?

Try a mix with exaggerated-level guitars. Duzzit hurt?

Try a mix without drums (or just the OH), then with drums greatly reduced, then with exaggerated-levels.

Can you change your monitor set-up?

I would approach it like an electronics troubleshooting process, kinda process of elimination (sometimes by exaggeration, analogous to EQ-sweeping.)

One more weird area of idears - are you drinking caffeine, smoking, using bright lights, have a TV on simultaneously, kids or sig-otro screaming in the background? Neutralize alla that.

Are you taking enough breaks? I try and mix no more than 20 minutes, take a break for 5 or 10, me.

[brightpavilions]

My first two questions would be if you're boosting eq a lot, especially in the mid/upper range. Second, are you using cheap condensers much (MXL, Rode) on electric guitar, vocals, overheads?

You said the mixes are dull on home stereos, but you also said they are fatiguing, right? I suppose there can still be clutter, or fog, in a mix that has some harsh frequencies. Many people, or at least me, start off on their learning curve trying to mostly add brightness for clarity, and then find it's more of a trick of cutting fat from different places. Not sure if that's your mix, but some common culprits.

They're dull on my home stereo meaning there's a ton of midrange. Not much going on at the top, a little tubby in the lows.

I'm cutting EQ more than boosting. I do my best to be "subtractive." The biggest cut is coming on the whole top end of the mono drum overhead to cut back on open high hats. I'm using the LPF to cut all the way to roughly 5k. In hindsight, that sure would accentuate the mid-highs wouldn't it?

And yeah, that overhead is a cheap LD condenser. It's what I had at the time to work with. The other stuff is tracked with mostly dynamic mics that are decent quality (57, RE20 etc.)

[brightpavilions]

My thoughts:

Turn down. Better?

Especially turn down, or even stop using, the "earbuds" - it's hard to accurately judge the levels of those, particularly after a few minutes. (Side story but on-topic: I have occasion to have to speak and listen in public places and find that using earphones or earbuds in the hours before make that more difficult.)

Try mixing other material. Same issues?

Use reference mixes.

Try a mix without guitars, with 1/2 the guitars or the guitars at very reduced levels. Better?

Try a mix with exaggerated-level guitars. Duzzit hurt?

Try a mix without drums (or just the OH), then with drums greatly reduced, then with exaggerated-levels.

Can you change your monitor set-up?

I would approach it like an electronics troubleshooting process, kinda process of elimination (sometimes by exaggeration, analogous to EQ-sweeping.)

One more weird area of idears - are you drinking caffeine, smoking, using bright lights, have a TV on simultaneously, kids or sig-otro screaming in the background? Neutralize alla that.

Are you taking enough breaks? I try and mix no more than 20 minutes, take a break for 5 or 10, me.

Thanks for you reply!

See the reply I just posted to losthighway.

I think I'm f*cking up with the drum OH. Mix that with the guitar and I'm getting a ton of harsh mids I think. Just talking through this is really helpful.

My monitor set up is what I got to deal with for now. Boosting the guitars as you suggested does add to the annoyance. Couple that with the cut on the OH and I think I'm building up harshness.

[brightpavilions]

Bright..

Do some playing around with an EQ on your 2 buss just to test things out in a broad and general way..a test

My suggestion would be to go right to the 1k (plus or minus) and into the 2k areas..and pull down a bit, sweep that curve a bit..then, pull down a lot..see if you start to feel that 'annoyance' change or get 'better'

Of course build up in the highs can do this but I find almost across the board that 1k-2k is where that fatigue is..

Folks are always trying to emphasize the 'mids' these days..but the upper mids in this area can be excruciating..especially with guitar sounds - and need definite attention. There IS a reason why the 'mid scoop' became a thing..because it's a hot zone where there are lots of things going on..mud, good stuff, excruciating stuff, on and on..IMO great mixers know how to deal properly in the midrange.

If you find some relief by pulling down in this area on your 2 buss..Then shut that EQ off and go back into your separate tracks and see if you can sort out what's happening in this area...if you have electric guitar tracks..go there first and pull some curves down a bit and listen..do it in the context of the mix but also solo those tracks and see if you actually hear it out of context..If you can't hear it out of context?..maybe you're getting some weird phase issues across the palette..

Also..just listen to your instruments in and out of the mix..take an EQ point and do a slight boost..track to track and just listen for objectionable stuff.stuff that hurts....locate it and get to know where these annoying frequencies reside and with what instruments they are associated with..etc. Some mix folks like to feature the juicy great sounding frequency ranges of particular instruments..the power zones etc..and drop the of the crappy stuff..small move will get you there if your stuff was recorded decently..but remember that it's a 'mix' so always check yourself in the context of the mix after solo listening and working..sometimes objectionable stuff gets balanced appropriately by other sounds..it's an interesting thing that way.

All awesome suggestions. Thank you!

Take a look at the reply I just posted to losthighway.

[brightpavilions]

You all sure know how to make a guy feel comfortable. Talking this out is making me rethink the EQ that's happening on my drums. I think I'm overcompensating while trying to reduce the level of open high hats.

I'm apprehensive ... just because I am, but would any of you be willing to listen to the last mix and see if any trouble spots stick out to you?

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i was just gonna say...we could give a lot better advice if we could hear the thing. so post a mix!

[kslight]

For some reason can’t find my reply to this...but basically what I said is my experience with KRK monitors is that they are overly bright and fatiguing to listen to. If your mixes sound good on these they will probably be dull elsewhere. My business partner likes his KRKs...but he has also been on tour in a huge hard rock band for 20 years so I don’t trust his ears.

I would try mixing on something else or keep in mind that the representation the KRKs give you may not be factual and you may need to accommodate for this in your mix.

[drumsound]

All the replies so far are great, and I love you attitude towards them. I'll see if I can add a few things.

What have you done to your garage? If its all hard surfaces, you will probably get a lot of fatigue no matter what. How much time have you spent listening to other music on you monitors in that space? If you haven't, its worth an experiment to do so and see if the same fatigue sets in. If it does, think about treatment, and possible a different monitor situation.

There's a mix technique I learned from Chris Garges years ago you might consider. Its kind of the opposite of soloing things. He'll listen to the entire song with different sections muted. A pass with no guitars, or no bass, or no drums etc. This gives a different, and often very insightful idea of how thing within the mix interact with the whole. I find it really helpful to see if things are doing too masking or if the same of a lot of frequency range is present over a lot of tracks (which can cause fatigue and other problems).

[Krackle]

For some reason can’t find my reply to this...but basically what I said is my experience with KRK monitors is that they are overly bright and fatiguing to listen to. If your mixes sound good on these they will probably be dull elsewhere. My business partner likes his KRKs...but he has also been on tour in a huge hard rock band for 20 years so I don’t trust his ears.

I would try mixing on something else or keep in mind that the representation the KRKs give you may not be factual and you may need to accommodate for this in your mix.

A while back i needed to be out of town for a bit and needed some monitors to bring..borrowed my Sons KRK 8's

Damn..those things %^#%ed me up, bad.
There is spot in the presentation of these things that really takes it's toll on a person..not so much the ears even..it's like it finds it's way through your skull and rattles you after a while..found my self desperate to remove that sound but it was impossible without trashing the material

I bagged them and rough mixed on some regular stereo speakers nearby and was immediately relieved..funny thing was they were available because my Son had bagged them..I called him after about week and said, "i don't know how you stand these things" ..he said he didn't use them any more because they bugged the hell out of him.

[brightpavilions]

Again, thanks for all the awesome feedback ya'll.

I'm apprehensive (you know how it is) to share a WIP but below is a link to take a listen to the last mix I was doing.

Some background. Overall my recordings are pretty "mid-fi." The gear is decent quality and the room is totally untreated. I play all the instruments, at home and the performance will hardly if ever be perfect. That's fine with me. That's the way my recordings are!

The song is called “All That I Get”. The mix is a total work in progress but overall I think that these are the tracks, with the exception of vocal harmonies and some percussion. You’ll also notice the song has a coda sorta thing at the end that just falls apart into a cacophony. This is a fade out tune for sure!

I promise not to take any offense to feedback and hopefully someone can spot some potential trouble spots!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hrp31vvxtkfg6 ... 8.mp3?dl=0

[brightpavilions]

For some reason can’t find my reply to this...but basically what I said is my experience with KRK monitors is that they are overly bright and fatiguing to listen to. If your mixes sound good on these they will probably be dull elsewhere. My business partner likes his KRKs...but he has also been on tour in a huge hard rock band for 20 years so I don’t trust his ears.

I would try mixing on something else or keep in mind that the representation the KRKs give you may not be factual and you may need to accommodate for this in your mix.

So weird isn't it. I've always found mixes I do on the KRKs to be lacking in the high end!!! Some people think they're great, some people hate 'em. I can't say I love the way they sound.

If I was to replace them, I'd need a powered setup and well ... budget friendly. I just saw these on CL. Anyone know anything about 'em?

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/ ... 13294.html

[Krackle]

Bright..do you mean you find them lacking in high end content when you're monitoring through them..mixing?

Or, do you mean lacking in high end when you play a bounce on other systems..like cars, living rooms and phone buds etc..