Isolation with a drop ceiling: fantasy or reality

[IDQ]

Hey everyone - thanks in advance for taking interest.

I'm having a contractor finish half of my basement in an older home (1940ish with a later addition) to become my recording studio. I'm not a professional, and I mostly make music by myself or with a friend. I've never recorded in a situation any better than an average bedroom, and I haven't been unhappy with my results in general. All this to say: I'm not looking for a perfect solution. It just needs to be reasonable. It's the basement of a 2 story house, and I'd like to be able to play a modest-volume guitar amp late at night without waking the kids 2 floors above me. I posted recently at the Sayers forum (here, if you'd like to read more: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21383) and I have found the advice very educational but still not all that practically useful. At the risk of offending the very intelligent people who took time to answer my questions (and who may very well cross post to this forum), I feel that the general vibe over there leans towards "do your shit perfect or don't do it at all." And maybe they are right.

I'm reposting here to get some feedback and 2nd hand experience regarding ceilings, especially basement ceilings. There are power mains, A/C condenser lines, electrical, cable, etc up in the joists above this space. I AM considering going with a "real" room w/in room ceiling after reading on the Sayers forum, but I'm still unsure if it will be practical. I may need to preserve access to the stuff above, and again, I don't need perfect sound isolation. My original thought, before getting discouraged, was a drop ceiling with insulation between the tiles and the joists above (eg rockwool). I'm beginning to understand now that this may accomplish more absorption than soundproofing/soundblocking. But there ARE grey areas, and that's why I'm asking for help.

Anybody have real world experiences with "Hight STC" acoustic tiles? (example: https://acousticalsolutions.com/product ... ling-tile/) These products seem to mostly consist of a compressed foam bonded to mass-loaded vinyl. Some also have the room-facing finish of whatever variety, while others just sit on top of whatever tiles one already has. These seem to be something like $30-40 per 2'x2' tile, making them easily 10x the cost of run-of-the-mill drop tiles. For my 12x21 room, that means an extra $2k-ish. I can swing it if they really work, but I'm skeptical. Still doesn't address the "airtight" seal that seems so important in 2 leaf construction.

If the IDEA of these tiles is sound, can anyone here comment at all on just laying rockwool/703/705 or similar on top of drop ceiling tiles and then placing either long strips or 2x2 squares of mass loaded vinyl on top? Is this even worth considering?

If you've tried (with either success or failure) to achieve modest isolation (not PERFECT isolation) in a basement with a drop ceiling, please advise. Even if all you can say is "don't bother, moron. build a second ceiling," that's ok. If I hear it enough times, maybe I'll stop being stubborn and listen.

Thanks again,
Shawn

[MoreSpaceEcho]

I feel that the general vibe over there leans towards "do your shit perfect or don't do it at all." And maybe they are right.

maybe they are, but when i posted there asking for advice on my new room, the one guy who responded basically said i should quadruple my budget.

ok man. i'll just go pick a few hundreds off the money tree out back.

anyway, as for your situation, i don't know anything about those ceiling tiles but i really doubt i would drop 2k on them.

If the IDEA of these tiles is sound, can anyone here comment at all on just laying rockwool/703/705 or similar on top of drop ceiling tiles and then placing either long strips or 2x2 squares of mass loaded vinyl on top? Is this even worth considering?

i dunno if the idea is even sound, but while laying RW/703 on top of your ceiling tiles would help a little bit, i don't think it would help that much, and if you were gonna do the MLV thing,
1. it's going to get expensive, and more importantly
2. that shit (afaik) is pretty heavy and i dunno how much weight a typical drop ceiling frame can hold.

I'm beginning to understand now that this may accomplish more absorption than soundproofing/soundblocking.

unfortunately, yes.

for soundproofing you need mass (actually you need mass-air-mass), and that typically means drywall. you can add strips of drywall to the underside of the floor/ceiling, in between the joists...'build it like the pros' details this nicely.

i can tell you from experience that putting up strips of drywall in between the joists is A Real Fucking Pain In The Ass, and especially so if you have to work around all the electrical, etc. but i guess if you could make your contractor do it....i'd happily write that check rather than do it myself again.

i'm sorry this isn't more helpful!

[losthighway]

A couple of things come to mind:

First, have you tried playing guitar down there and seeing how loud it is two floors above right now? Get some data. Maybe you need just a little more reduction, maybe it's already cool with a floor in between, maybe your hvac is working like a loud speaker and things are horrid.

From there you could look at insulation in your existing ceiling first (if it's not already there). You could save space overhead with your ceiling drywall suspended on clips (hat channel, forgot the name of the product) which would be the closest thing to a compromise between nothing, and a fully isolated ceiling. Wherever your heat is coming in could be a weak link.

I found in my old basement studio that the weakest link after I insulated, and double drywalled the ceilings was the actual door into the basement at the bottom of the stairs. If you already have a room in between where the music happens and where the basement entry is, that's a plus. Adding insulation in walls and solid core doors can add considerably to your reduction.

If you want to do things pro, room within a room, as silent as possible (there is no soundproof) then yeah. You gotta go full on Sayers, and drop a bucket of money. Design it, room within a room, frame it, seal it. If you're just wanting to isolate things a bit more, there are some steps you could take that wouldn't be cost prohibitive that might benefit you- especially if you or your friends know how to hang/mud drywall.

The only tricky thing is as they'll tell you over at the Sayers forum, or in the Build It Like a Pro book- the whole thing is a system. Sometimes disparate pieces of the puzzle don't work, until everything's there. That said, insulation is (relatively) cheap.

[kslight]

Not an acoustics suggestion so apologize in advance if you aren’t keen to this idea...but have you considered using a load box and IRs? I use a Two Notes Torpedo Live, works awesome.

I dunno your budget, but I would have to assume achieving “guitar amp while kids are asleep” level soundproofing is not realistic without spending serious cash. I guess depends on how loud you play, how bad sound leaks upstairs now, and how soundly your kids sleep.


Just an idea. I know some people may also suggest an iso cab but I personally haven’t heard one that sounds good, and it they still aren’t quiet enough...maybe a 30% reduction in volume.


I’m not saying the Sayers and other forums of pros aren’t knowledgeable, but I think most of the time they assume you are a pro that wants to work at home, or at least really well off and able to afford $$$$$ worth of modifications to your home for a hobby, like a millionaire building a home theatre.

[Magnetic Services]

I feel that the general vibe over there leans towards "do your shit perfect or don't do it at all." And maybe they are right.

maybe they are, but when i posted there asking for advice on my new room, the one guy who responded basically said i should quadruple my budget.

ok man. i'll just go pick a few hundreds off the money tree out back.

This is why I love the TOMB. Real motherfuckers talking real talk.

I'm gonna piggyback on this thread for my own situation... I've built an isolation room in my studio in a mixed-use industrial building (floating floor + double drywall on resilient channels), and next it will be time for the ceiling. My plan was to nail 2x6 boards in between the (large) ceiling beams, run resilient channels across them, then hang drywall from the channels and insulate above. The ceiling would end up hanging half an inch or so below the beams, not touching them, and there would be about a 1-foot deep empty space above the ceiling. I have very little money for this... how's my plan sound?

[losthighway]

^ If I understand it right, you're beefing up the cavities in the ceiling with 2x6 and insulation, then hanging double drywall off of resilient channel?

I'd say that's the text book "next best thing" to an isolated ceiling. In the oft-touted Build It Like the Pros book, he'd have you leave a small gap on the edges of the wood you're putting up into the ceiling joists, stuff it with that round styrofoamy gasket stuff (why does the term escape me?) and then seal that with acoustic caulk.

This detail is a murder in the labor department. I did it when I was still in my basement studio and when you think of having to caulk the length of each floor joist twice (for each side of your board) times the total number of floor joists.... suffice to say I got pretty sloppy and lazy out of the sheer mundaneness of the task. It makes taping and caulking moulding before you paint it white seem fast and fun. Perhaps the tedium amounts to better reduction, but I don't have the data.

All said this is down to the principal of more mass = more reduction, and the mass, air, mass rule. On these principals it could be better still to double layer drywall between the floor joists (with green glue!). I'm pretty sure drywall is still cheaper than wood, but then again those 2x6's add a lot of mass with less cutting/drywall dust.

** Also, if you take part of a drywall lift off, you can (somewhat) safely put a long narrow sheet of drywall, or perhaps in your case a board on it. This is brilliant because it allows you to crank your piece up between the floor joists, bump it into the ideal position, and have something holding it in place while you climb a ladder with your drill and put some screws in. When we did it, we'd get half a dozen screws in so it wasn't going anywhere, then drop the lift and get it out of the way to get more screws in the middle section, as the metal arm of the lift can kind of be in the way. SOOO much easier than making one guy hold it and groan while the other fastens. It also means you can work alone if you need to.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

This detail is a murder in the labor department.

he is not kidding folks. the worst. never again.

[losthighway]

Oh, and that stuff is called 'backer rod'. I'm not losing it yet.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

hahaha i was JUST coming back here to say "it's backer rod"!

i actually counted the number of seams i had to caulk in my ceiling. i have since blocked that memory as i never want to think of it again, but it was in the hundreds.

anyway, dante, your ceiling plan sounds fine to me.

[Magnetic Services]

I feel bad, like I'm hijacking this thread, but hopefully this convo is producing good info for OP and everyone else.

^ If I understand it right, you're beefing up the cavities in the ceiling with 2x6 and insulation, then hanging double drywall off of resilient channel?

The 2x6s are actually meant hang the RC off of, because the beams/joists themselves are reaaaallllyyyy wonky and warped (110+ year-old building) They are really big structural beams, not standard floor joists like in a house. The 2x6's would be nailed perpendicularly between them just to have a nice, level base to hang the ceiling from.

the oft-touted Build It Like the Pros book

I bought that book but have referenced it very few times during this buildout. It has the same mentality to it as the Sayers forum; and also I'm a stubborn DIY guy with a tiny budget. He says a floating floor pretty much isn't worth doing unless you're filling it with sand or pouring concrete.

And why have I never heard of backer rod? I've caulked hundreds of feet where this would've been useful!

[floid]

The 2x6s are actually meant hang the RC off of, because the beams/joists themselves are reaaaallllyyyy wonky and warped (110+ year-old building) They are really big structural beams, not standard floor joists like in a house. The 2x6's would be nailed perpendicularly between them just to have a nice, level base to hang the ceiling from.

I would run ledger boards on the beams and cut notches in the 2x6s so that they rest on the ledger. Your assembly will hold more weight this way and will be less likely to pull free from the existing structure.
If they are on 2' centers or less, simply tack your 2x6s on to the beams.

[losthighway]

I bought that book but have referenced it very few times during this buildout. It has the same mentality to it as the Sayers forum; and also I'm a stubborn DIY guy with a tiny budget. He says a floating floor pretty much isn't worth doing unless you're filling it with sand or pouring concrete.

And why have I never heard of backer rod? I've caulked hundreds of feet where this would've been useful!

Yeah, forget about floating floors, it's a nightmare.

It might be too late, or you may have made up your mind, but adding mass in the form of drywall between floor joists is a pretty solid idea.

[Magnetic Services]

I would run ledger boards on the beams and cut notches in the 2x6s so that they rest on the ledger. Your assembly will hold more weight this way and will be less likely to pull free from the existing structure.
If they are on 2' centers or less, simply tack your 2x6s on to the beams.

That's a good idea. They are more than 4' on center; a drywall sheet fits easily with a couple inches on either side. I do have a lot of extra lumber, since the nice people at the lumber yard way over estimated and sold me a lot more than I ended up using.

It might be too late, or you may have made up your mind, but adding mass in the form of drywall between floor joists is a pretty solid idea.

Not too late! Just a matter of budget.

Man, If my construction photos were easily accessible online I'd show you what this all looks like. Maybe I'll make a studio build thread when I'm done.

[floid]

If a full sheet of rock fits, I'd go for it if the money was there.

[IDQ]

OK guys, that was super fun, but can I have my thread back?
I am kidding of course - Dante's question was a logical extension of my own and gave me some ideas. I wish I had a professional close by to walk through this with, but there's nobody I know of. This might sound REALLY dumb, but is there such a thing as a hybrid solution?

A little more on my situation. I have direct transmission to the hardwood floor of the 1st floor room immediately above this basement studio, and also through flanking via hvAC ducts. That room is my fireplace/record player room, so chances are that if I'm in the basement making noise, no one will be in that room. I don't want it crazy loud, but a little noise in there won't be an issue. It's hard to trust one's ears, but I think the main source of transmission to the 2nd floor (where my kids sleep) is mostly via HVAC. In the basement, the HVAC kinda runs along the walls/corners of the room I'm building out, while the stuff I'm worried about preserving access to (A/C condenser lines, electrical main, etc) is in the middle. This isn't the best pic, but I'll attach below in case it helps...

Is there any use in asking my contractor to build double drywall soffits (hung off the joists, caulked and sealed to the ceiling and outer cement block wall) around the perimeter HVAC ducts while leaving the mid portion of the room a drop-ceiling type thing with rockwool above in the joists? Or is this just another pretend situation that doesn't actually obey the laws of physics? IE your weakest link is the only thing that matters?