Client woes... Trying to please a singer...

[nicholasdover]

Oh man - I've been asked by a singer to mix her album which was recorded elsewhere (done really well) because the engineer who recorded it was apparently more pop than jazz and my background has a lot of jazz in it. I've spent a few days on it, some attended and some alone, lots of back and forth asking opinions, but basically she's just running the process into the ground, constantly comparing herself negatively to others, weighing up the mixes to my previous (mastered...) mixes, not giving any positive or constructive forward-looking feedback, just saying it's not as good as so and so famous singer. She's SO quick to blame the engineer for any tiny blip even when it's not posing a genuine problem. I EQ her a bit and she says she doesn't recognise her voice but gives no positive guidance as to getting to the sound in her head. I've tried explaining that that nobody else can or will ever hear her voice the way she hears it when she sings! I just don't know what to do or say to her without me sounding defeatist or defensive, and currently feel like she's paid me to be on her team but she's kind of destroying the team while I'm desperately trying to make her album sound as lovely and elegant and classy as it can and should. I know this is a situation lots/most/all of you guys know or have been in but it's the worst I've had it so far so any Agony Aunt advice would be extremely gratefully received in terms of saying the right thing and acting professionally. I guess it boils down to the fact she isn't trusting my judgement on her songs, while simultaneously suggesting she prefers my work on other people's songs! But I think I'm doing a good job of hers, while she can't describe what would make hers sound better.
Cheers
Nick

[kslight]

Have you been given the opportunity to "finish" mixing one of her songs, to your ears, without her attendance? Maybe she can't hear what needs to happen in between to create the finished product if that makes sense. It doesn't sound like her attending sessions is helping. I think just taking a song to the end and then turning that in to her may be the best way if she can't offer feedback. I don't think its real unusual for the artist not to really know what the "right" terms to get the mix to where they want it, or what is missing. They are not always technically versed and often "too close" to the source material to listen objectively. It might help if she had a set of outside ears to act as producer to make these kind of decisions if she cannot.

[submergent]

+1 on that last post.
dont let her in on the mix until you hand off a V1.

-pete

[nicholasdover]

Thanks for you thoughts. I was trickle fed the album track by track over a week and a half as she did the (bad) vocal editing (instead of paying, and to keep control), but the vocals all had slightly different EQ as they came from the recording studio (maybe EQ'd on way in), and also there's a mix of straight ahead jazz and more soul stuff so a bit of a tricky balancing act of tying the vocal sounds and band sounds together to be done. I've never heard her sing in a room so wanted some feedback early in process and sent her some fairly complete mixes to MY taste after a day to see how she felt about where they were heading. Should I maybe have played this differently? I'm not established enough for it to be a case of "if you hire me you'll get my trademark sound" but I did send her some of my recent relevant mixes as an example. She's not listening to anything in the band other than the vocals. Her bass player came in with her once and was really helpful and constructive and loved where it was going, but she's the boss...
Should I consider being more hardline and saying: "okay, I'm going to send you a complete set of mixes at the end of the day, you can give me one set of notes, at the end of tomorrow you will have a second set and after that you will get my invoice"?! That's not very "me", but I'd love to at this point!

[kslight]

Well I mean if she’s gonna keep paying you to play around with it then by all means. But if you don’t have time or are not getting paid hourly or are simply over the project then I would outline it exactly as you want. Say you’ll do a mix and after one round of changes it is billable. She’ll either like the terms or not.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I've beeen where you are a few times (probably more if I'm honest with myself). Younger me played along and did everything I could to appease the client even when their input was contradictory and unhelpful. We'd run the material into the ground and in the end no-one would be happy with the final compromised result.
Older me takes a deep breath and tells the client everything you've laid out in your first post. I explain what I can and can't do with the material, how I'd handle it if left to my own devices, what I think are the strength and weakness of the raw material, and how the process and client notes are and aren't helpful. Sometimes that talk gives the client the confidence to trust me and let go of some of their control (and anxieties), other times I realize that there's no winning. At those times the best thing you can do for yourself and the client is walk away. If they won't let you help them and give them your best work there's not much point in sticking it out.
It's a tough position to take (especially when you need the job) but sometimes it's the best move you can make.

[vvv]

I had this prob (posted about it here, also) with a drummer who just bagged on the kick sound, and the drums in general.

I mean, hours of shite.

Eventually, after the 3rd session of this, I made sure to do a session w/out him around, finished the mixes at that point and said, "here".

He now loves it, BTW, but at the time wanted to sound like a combo of Bonham and Porcaro - impossible.

This was a band I was in, BTW, tho' not "my" band. I made no $, did 2 records, eventually quit because the leader was a passive-aggressive narcissist.

Curiously, the drummer and I remain great friends, formed two more bands, altho' he's too ill to play now ...

(You can hear it, here, altho' I have better production chops now.)

[Magnetic Services]

Sounds like a classic case of needing some time/space away from the project. Has the singer stepped away at all during this process? Try explaining how valuable it is to get a fresh perspective. Since she obviously values your past work, maybe you can convince her that you've been through this before and gain some trust?

[Gregg Juke]

Also, from the "producer," rather than engineer, perspective (which you have become by default)-- Try to get her to give some pro examples of "good" records in her particular bag, then use those tracks as your standard for mixing/A-Bing. As posted, sometimes people have no idea how to verbally express what they like/want, but they can point you to artists and tracks that they feel are ideal. Use that information to build your final product on.

GJ

[nicholasdover]

Thanks again for all your replies.
Regarding the A/B to released tracks, we've done that but it just goes straight down a path of "everyone else sounds better than me" and also she sends recordings from a local place that has a brand new £80K Fazioli piano and asks if I can get the cronky old "character" piano she's used to come close so rather than embrace anything, she sets up losing battles.
I think time away would be ideal but she's got a mastering deadline in a couple of days...
She doesn't seem sensitive to me being stern though! This morning she was bombarding me with texts about what she thought, and asking what I thought about various things and when my blood eventually boiled I sent one basically saying "can you leave me to concentrate on making your songs sound as beautiful as I can please - you will have the sum total of all of my musical opinions on your work zipped up in a wetransfer package later today" and she just kind of went "oh, sorry, yeah sure - I'll stop texting you and let you concentrate". So she's fairly thick skinned which is something!

[Nick Sevilla]

All I can give is a few pointers:

1. If she has a mastering deadline and refuses to change it, then every single time she interrupts with negativity, gently remind her of this deadline.

2. If she does change this deadline in order to get better mixes, then STOP! And create a workable timeline for completion. Bring up all your concerns, but in a positive way. For example, when she puts herself down because she does not sound like another artist, remind her she is unique and different. That she does not need to ever worry about sounding like someone else. You can't really go further than that advice for her, as this is a psychological problem, an insecurity, that even shrinks cannot overcome in some instances.

3. Once you two have committed to a working method (I mix until 4 pm, then you come in to help finish a song or two), then STICK to it no matter what. Set a workable daily goal, say, to actually finish and sign off on one song. DO not get distracted by anything other than that one song getting finished. No going away from it, no "come back to that later". No. A song gets finished and signed off on on that day. If it needs another day, then so be it. Just do not hop around songs. This makes it clear the project needs to be finished, and she cannot avoid any song that is troublesome, or any detail within a song that she does not want to face head on. Hard to do but it helps once you get through one actual signed off on mix.

4. Do not work more than 10 hours in one day, and take plenty of small breaks, so your ears do not get exhausted (even more than they are now LOL). Force her to take breaks as well.

[Nick Sevilla]

... also she sends recordings from a local place that has a brand new £80K Fazioli piano and asks if I can get the cronky old "character" piano she's used to come close so rather than embrace anything, she sets up losing battles.

Things like this I usually answer with:

"Sure, we can go to that place and record that piano, it will be a lot less expensive than trying to process a different piano".

That shuts them up immediately. Because they face spending MORE money somewhere else, and spend MORE time, delaying the ending to their project. This also can mean some sort of open ended nightmare in their minds. So far no one has taken my suggestions to go and record a new instrument when they say stuff like that. Play to their wallet, that usually stops their crazier ideas.

[vvv]

Play to their wallet, that usually stops their crazier ideas.

+1

[kslight]

If it were my project, re-recording with a nice piano would probably be worth the expense if the existing piano tracks are weak. If you are inclined maybe could call up the other place and see if you can get a fair freelancer rate and come up with a proposal to your client.

Assuming that perhaps the mastering deadline is flexible.

[Gregg Juke]

Or, to add even more of an array of endless choices to a project that seems to need less of them-- Is using audio-to-MIDI and triggering another piano an option?

GJ