Does anyone use overheads?

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Gregg Juke
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by Gregg Juke » Thu May 24, 2018 12:43 pm

Also, I'd love to advocate for another abbreviation for "Glyn Johns." Throws me off every time!

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by drumsound » Thu May 24, 2018 1:46 pm

Gregg Juke wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 12:43 pm
Also, I'd love to advocate for another abbreviation for "Glyn Johns." Throws me off every time!

GJ
I say you start claim all references to GJ as your own. IT will really boost you Allmusic hits.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by Gregg Juke » Fri May 25, 2018 5:55 am

:-o

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by GeorgeToledo » Fri May 25, 2018 11:32 am

Maybe it’s arguable but I don’t think it’s exactly possible to center both kick and snare through just two overheads.

They both occupy different physical spaces, so it’s going to be one or the other in the center of the image.

Personally, I think it pretty much is always more important to center the kick, otherwise the kick shifts to a side. That tends to rub wrong. You can try to save yourself with some high pass but it’s usually still kinda wack.

But if a snare is a bit to one side, it still sounds like a kit. The snare is to one side in reality anyway!

Then if you bring up close mics right in the center, it just makes the snare seem “wide” (which is usually desirable), and it brings snare more into the center depending on how much of that close mic you use.

Not saying there are any rights or wrongs though.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by vvv » Fri May 25, 2018 11:52 am

"Maybe it’s arguable but I don’t think it’s exactly possible to center both kick and snare through just two overheads."

Really?

Kick
..\
....\
.....\
.. ..Snare
...................oh
oh
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Fri May 25, 2018 12:00 pm

Draw a mental line through the kick from the front edge on the floor tom side to the snare. If you line up your stereo mics with that in mind (OH or FOK or M/S) your kick and snare will be centered.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by drumsound » Fri May 25, 2018 12:03 pm

GeorgeToledo wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:32 am
Maybe it’s arguable but I don’t think it’s exactly possible to center both kick and snare through just two overheads.

They both occupy different physical spaces, so it’s going to be one or the other in the center of the image.

Personally, I think it pretty much is always more important to center the kick, otherwise the kick shifts to a side. That tends to rub wrong. You can try to save yourself with some high pass but it’s usually still kinda wack.

But if a snare is a bit to one side, it still sounds like a kit. The snare is to one side in reality anyway!

Then if you bring up close mics right in the center, it just makes the snare seem “wide” (which is usually desirable), and it brings snare more into the center depending on how much of that close mic you use.

Not saying there are any rights or wrongs though.
Place you overheads where both the BD and SD are in the center, like vvv's diagram. I do this all the time, and it works great.

As a drummer I think of the snare as center, because its central to my body. As an engineer, I want both BD and SD center for a multitude of reasons. Shifting the overs about 45º has done wonders for my sound.

Image

There's also a George Massenburg video where he talks about placing overheads that center the SD and BD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by vvv » Fri May 25, 2018 12:11 pm

What? My QWERTY sketch wasn't good enuff?

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by GeorgeToledo » Fri May 25, 2018 1:12 pm

drumsound wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:03 pm
GeorgeToledo wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:32 am
Maybe it’s arguable but I don’t think it’s exactly possible to center both kick and snare through just two overheads.

They both occupy different physical spaces, so it’s going to be one or the other in the center of the image.

Personally, I think it pretty much is always more important to center the kick, otherwise the kick shifts to a side. That tends to rub wrong. You can try to save yourself with some high pass but it’s usually still kinda wack.

But if a snare is a bit to one side, it still sounds like a kit. The snare is to one side in reality anyway!

Then if you bring up close mics right in the center, it just makes the snare seem “wide” (which is usually desirable), and it brings snare more into the center depending on how much of that close mic you use.

Not saying there are any rights or wrongs though.
Place you overheads where both the BD and SD are in the center, like vvv's diagram. I do this all the time, and it works great.

As a drummer I think of the snare as center, because its central to my body. As an engineer, I want both BD and SD center for a multitude of reasons. Shifting the overs about 45º has done wonders for my sound.

Image

There's also a George Massenburg video where he talks about placing overheads that center the SD and BD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k
That works fine and I’ve done it that way when tracking bands for years. But I’ve gradually come to feel that if you use that axis and center kick and snare both perfectly, that then resulting stereo image doesn’t quite wrap in a way that sounds like it would if I was playing drums behind the kit. It’s hard to not have the overs get different amounts of attack from the beater of the kick drum usually too, even when you level match.

I’m not saying I like the snare far out to one side, just usually very slight to one side I suppose.

What I’ve been doing lately is to put one sdc over the snare, in a sort of Stax like positioning, then place another in a similar way, but pointing down at floor tom and ride. I get kick level balanced between those, which ends up with an image that has snare to the side a bit, and with an image that reminds me of when I’m sitting behind the kit. I’ve been using two AMI f44 for this most of the time.

Then I put an LDC right in the middle, as a mono overhead, and try to catch as even a balance of everything as possible. I’ve been using a CS1 or M49CG for this most recently.

Then close mics on snare and kick, sometimes toms.

This kind of approach winds up being super flexible for whether you want the sound to get more mono/down the center, or whether you want to feel the stereo image in a very pronounced way.

You want to bring it all down the center and check for mono compatibility of course, but if you keep a kind of consistent angling of the mics, it usually works out.

That GM axis approach has made it harder for me to achieve mono compatibility because of how the kick usually lays between the two overheads, with one getting more of the beater side and the other more of the side to near front of the kick. It can work though, and GM is a genius who makes great sounding records!

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by Theo_Karon » Sat May 26, 2018 7:57 pm

Things got very busy for a minute there - sorry to have checked out on the thread I started! But, thanks so much for contributing these perspectives - you all are the best
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by drumsound » Sat May 26, 2018 8:10 pm

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:00 pm
Draw a mental line through the kick from the front edge on the floor tom side to the snare. If you line up your stereo mics with that in mind (OH or FOK or M/S) your kick and snare will be centered.
I was just piling on to your awesomeness. :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue May 29, 2018 8:36 am

emrr wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:48 am
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:32 am
I have always really struggled with M/S. On paper, it seems like the coolest thing ever to me, but in the small number of instances where I've tried it, it sounds like my brain is getting sucked out of my skull when I bring the mics up. That's the only way I can describe it. ha. I quadruple check my matrix to insure it's correct (I do it in the DAW), but something is f'd up and I can't figure out where I"m going wrong.
I can only bet on the side being too high in volume. It can be a challenge with mics having different sensitivities, and once it's too wide, the opposite polarity element begins to dominate and the stereo info starts bleeding away. Mics with wildly different response can do this in a frequency selective manner too. You can really only make it so wide before it falls apart.

I recently got Sennheiser MKH 30/40 mics with matched sensitivity (by design) and very even responses, and it's the most solid and simple MS I've ever achieved. Localization within the spread is great, really pinpoint. I really think it's better than anything I've ever gotten with well matched ribbons.
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I'm going to keep that in mind when I inevitably try it again.
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