Does anyone use overheads?

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by TapeOpLarry » Tue May 22, 2018 9:50 am

90% of the home made recordings I mix I have to barely use the overheads. Bad room tone, weird placement, failed M/S concept garbage, bad mics, inappropriate use of Glyn Johns Technique, bad preamps, bad convertors, bad kit, bad drummer, etc. I always wish I'd pull them up and they'd sound great but few ever do, so I smash the shit outta kick and snare mics and pray something will work. For my own recordings I've been on a quest for decades for a pair of mics that don't let me down! Currently on Telefunken M260's. Pair of mics in front of kit looking at it the right way can be pretty amazing and barely ever talked about or used as far as I can tell. I have a bunch of drum mic videos coming out on Lynda, in fact this week's free episode is front of kit vs OH (I didn't know that until I just looked it up!).

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by kslight » Tue May 22, 2018 10:14 am

TapeOpLarry wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:50 am
90% of the home made recordings I mix I have to barely use the overheads. Bad room tone, weird placement, failed M/S concept garbage, bad mics, inappropriate use of Glyn Johns Technique, bad preamps, bad convertors, bad kit, bad drummer, etc. I always wish I'd pull them up and they'd sound great but few ever do, so I smash the shit outta kick and snare mics and pray something will work. For my own recordings I've been on a quest for decades for a pair of mics that don't let me down! Currently on Telefunken M260's. Pair of mics in front of kit looking at it the right way can be pretty amazing and barely ever talked about or used as far as I can tell. I have a bunch of drum mic videos coming out on Lynda, in fact this week's free episode is front of kit vs OH (I didn't know that until I just looked it up!).

https://www.lynda.com/Pro-Tools-tutoria ... 259-4.html
OMG right? Some people really overthink it with “M/S” and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone pull off a good sounding GJ interpretation.

I mean i love experimentation with recording as much as the next guy but if your drums don’t sound good when recording you just need to back up a second and fix that or you’re gonna fight that to the end. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to take some 9-12 mic thing down to 3-4 mics because it was mostly poop.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by drumsound » Tue May 22, 2018 10:47 am

To pile on to odd things from home studios, I've had things where they spot erased the overheads and just had them there for crashes. Talk about fucking with the overall drum sound...

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by floid » Tue May 22, 2018 5:25 pm

So being this place was all about the glyn johns thing a few years back... what do you guys hear from it that you don't like?
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by losthighway » Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm

floid wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:25 pm
So being this place was all about the glyn johns thing a few years back... what do you guys hear from it that you don't like?
I'll be curious to see what Larry says, but I remember from another conversation many were sharing that the GJ setup doesn't always lend itself to panning and creating a very coherent stereo image. It's kind of cockeyed.

Another thing with GJ, especially done in it's purist form (no tom mics), is it puts a greater burden on the sound of the drums, the kit balance of the player and the sound of the room. It's all well and good for Johns to tell Bonham to hit the toms harder on the fill, it's another when it's some spazzy kid in your basement.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Tue May 22, 2018 6:32 pm

If the room/drummer aren’t great it’s a lost cause. It can go way wrong if the floor tom side mic is too close to the floor tom. You end up with a ridiculously huge FT once you balance the L&R to get the snare centred.
If the FT side mic is too high (or if the ride is really low) you get a weird wobbly/phasey sounding ride as the edge of the cymbal moves above and below the plane of the mic.
If the OHs aren’t placed well you can centre the kick or snare but not both. I actually find it hard to centre both kick and snare in even the best situations.
If the drummer is a cymbal brasher it’s game over (as with most techniques).
If the drummer is a hi hat bashed it’s game over (same as above).

If someone is delivering tracks for me to mix I’d take a mono OH and close mics over Glynn Johns any day.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by kslight » Tue May 22, 2018 6:58 pm

floid wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:25 pm
So being this place was all about the glyn johns thing a few years back... what do you guys hear from it that you don't like?
One of those things I read about on forums like it’s the way to do things (like the Shure SM7b being the default mic everyone recommends when someone asks what to buy) but I’ve never preferred it, or been real happy with it no matter who is pointing the mics (except GJ). Sometimes sounds a bit phasey weird to me as well. Most likely I’m doing it wrong, and have mostly heard it wrong...but I never have all day to fool around with it.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by vvv » Tue May 22, 2018 9:28 pm

I have liked the results but it always feels like I can do a close, OH and room set up in the same amount of time it takes to get GJ right,and the former is more flexible.
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by emrr » Wed May 23, 2018 5:28 am

I've used MS M130/M160 OH consistently for years, and use a lot of it, though less than whatever pair I have out front, which also tends to be MS ribbons. There aren't a lot of times I'm chasing a super processed close mic sound. I'll use dbx 902's in high frequency limiter mode if the front room pair is getting smashed up and the cymbals are hit too hard, that can work well.

More recently I had a fairly quiet drummer with pretty good dynamic control, and with him a U47 clone mic (Thiersch Blue capsule) as OH was most of the sound, and very satisfying. Small condenser as close kick, and a MS condenser pair for a minority amount of spacial contribution. I had a snare mic, but turned it off.

My first pair of 'nice' condensers were KM140', and I never got on with those. Always fighting a pointy treble, and turning them 45-70º off axis to tame it, with varying results. I stopped using them as OH's 15+ years ago, and recently sold them....they work great 40 feet from a source though! Before that I had some early Earthworks I'd use as OH, and while they sounded 'real' they also sounded anemic usually.
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by vvv » Wed May 23, 2018 6:35 am

emrr wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:28 am
Small condenser as close kick, and a MS condenser pair for a minority amount of spacial contribution.
Tell us more, please.
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Wed May 23, 2018 7:32 am

Talking about how GJ doesn't really work a lot of the time (I agree) made me think about how I have always really struggled with M/S. On paper, it seems like the coolest thing ever to me, but in the small number of instances where I've tried it, it sounds like my brain is getting sucked out of my skull when I bring the mics up. That's the only way I can describe it. ha. I quadruple check my matrix to insure it's correct (I do it in the DAW), but something is f'd up and I can't figure out where I"m going wrong.
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Wed May 23, 2018 8:05 am

i've never liked m/s micing either. i'm sure it works great, just not for me. (m/s eq in mastering is great though!)

as far as GJ, the thing i never liked about it was the imaging of the hihat. the hats always seemed too distinct in the floor tom-side mic, so it'd kinda sound like i had hats on either side of my kit.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by drumsound » Wed May 23, 2018 8:59 am

The thing most folks don't realize about Glyn Johns overheads is that they are supposed to be panned about 3-9 not hard left right. This brings the BD and SD into better focus.

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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by emrr » Thu May 24, 2018 11:48 am

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:32 am
I have always really struggled with M/S. On paper, it seems like the coolest thing ever to me, but in the small number of instances where I've tried it, it sounds like my brain is getting sucked out of my skull when I bring the mics up. That's the only way I can describe it. ha. I quadruple check my matrix to insure it's correct (I do it in the DAW), but something is f'd up and I can't figure out where I"m going wrong.
I can only bet on the side being too high in volume. It can be a challenge with mics having different sensitivities, and once it's too wide, the opposite polarity element begins to dominate and the stereo info starts bleeding away. Mics with wildly different response can do this in a frequency selective manner too. You can really only make it so wide before it falls apart.

I recently got Sennheiser MKH 30/40 mics with matched sensitivity (by design) and very even responses, and it's the most solid and simple MS I've ever achieved. Localization within the spread is great, really pinpoint. I really think it's better than anything I've ever gotten with well matched ribbons.
vvv wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:35 am
emrr wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:28 am
Small condenser as close kick, and a MS condenser pair for a minority amount of spacial contribution.
Tell us more, please.
Ha, more experiments with the new Sennheisers. Actually stuck an MKH30 in front of the kick, null towards loudest/closest cymbal, and (actually double MS) MKH800 Twin and MKH30 as the spatial pair out front. Kick to taste against the OH, MS pair way down, not sure of the printed level difference offhand but something like -18 compared to the OH.
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Re: Does anyone use overheads?

Post by Gregg Juke » Thu May 24, 2018 12:40 pm

Cirrus wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:33 am
As per the other thread, I quite like having the "overheads" down at or below cymbal height, and positioning them for the best overall drum sound/ balance/ stereo spread, which often means one in front and one on the floor tom side.

Even so when it comes to mix time, quite often I start with good intentions of leaning heavily on the overheads, then by the time the mix is finished (it's usually alt/ heavier rock) it's loads of close mics, and the rooms rather than the overheads providing the air/ tone/ cohesion. That said, I do most of my drum compression at the bus so the stuff in between the close mic hits is brought up.

I usually get to a place where the overheads are basically being rode through the mix to get them out of the way, then bringing them up when I want splashes of brightness/ detail like in fills or going into a chorus where I want it to have more life.

It's a different story if I don't have room mics, then of course I can't be so fast and loose with the overheads without the entire drum kit seeming to leer in and out of the mix.

I often find myself using dynamic eq to get some of the harshness or ringing (washed rides can be bad for this) out of the cymbals. I don't know if that's just because I've not found the right cymbals yet...
Cymbal aside-- A's generally washier, K's generally "darker" (lower pitched and less washy), Z's should be left on the trash heap of history. Earth rides mixed bag; usually pingy _and_ dry, which is cool. Sabian's are a mixed bag, old Instanbul's = :hearts: , Paiste also generally brighter and more ringy/pingy or alternatively more washy. Other brands? Catch as catch can.

Full of generalities, slightly off-topic, controversial and incendiary grand statement I know. But that might help as a very general starting point.

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